The Science of Towing - Page 3

The Science of Towing

This is a discussion on The Science of Towing within the RAM 1500 Diesel Towing & Hauling forums, part of the RAM 1500 EcoDiesel Forum category; I’m surprised no one has made a better radiator or as referenced by abj a CAC relocation kit. Build that kit and I would be ...

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  1. #21
    Super Moderator VernDiesel's Avatar
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    I’m surprised no one has made a better radiator or as referenced by abj a CAC relocation kit. Build that kit and I would be in the market for it. I had forgotten about that bumper. I like it.
    Airstream TT & boat transporter. Factory trailer brake controller tow mirrors & hitch camera, B&M GN turnover ball, Andersen 5er adapter, WDH with built in sway control & steel adjustable hitch, Axle to frame air bags, GDE engine & transmission tunes plus turbo brake, SLT Grill, 275/55/20 XL load tires, Max ED tow rating 9,200, combined axle rating 7,800, Max 4th gen 1500 CVWR 15,950, Max receiver tongue weight 1265 w WDH, CAT scales 3,300 steer 2,560 drive with me hitches & tools

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    It's my opinion the radiator is adequate. Or at least I haven't found its limits after installing the oil cooler.
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    RAM Jr Member pjordan4477's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bounty Hunter View Post
    It's my opinion the radiator is adequate. Or at least I haven't found its limits after installing the oil cooler.
    Can someone post a link to a trusted oil cooler they recommend?
    Last edited by pjordan4477; 09-11-2019 at 09:20 AM.
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  5. #24
    RAM Professional RangerGress's Avatar
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    Car enthusiasts have long had problems with understanding the difference between hp and torque. It's not about gears. It's about movement and time. Torque has no movement nor time. So as long as you're not talking about movement or time, you can talk about torque all you want. But as soon as there's movement or time, it's not torque. Examples:

    You take a torque wrench set at 100lb-ft and put in on one of your wheels. That's 100lb-ft of honest torque. Sure neither wheel nor truck will move, but you're entirely accurate calling it 100lb ft of torque.

    Now set the wrench at 200lb-ft and put it on a wheel. Lets say the wheel rotates a bit so your truck moves an inch. This is no longer torque because there is movement. What you have accomplished is "work". Divide the # by how long it took you to move that inch and you have power. The only way you can accurately talk torque, in that scenario, is to say that it took 200lb ft to get the truck moving.

    Another example. You put 100lb-ft on the wheel for 30secs and I put 100lb-ft on the wheel for 10yrs. It's the same amount of torque, no matter that I worked a helova lot harder then you did. It's the same because there is no time in torque.

    What we call torque is really hp at low rpm. Lets call it low end grunt. It's just that magazine writers, most of whom are not engineers, don't know any better. They don't understand the difference between lb-ft (torque) and ftlbs (work). They're so screwed up on this that we've all been brainwashed to call the units of torque "ftlbs". It's like saying "how many miles to Seattle" and someone telling you 300 Watts.

    The reason that gearing changes torque is it's just like having a longer torque wrench on that wheel. But that doesn't change the fact that as soon as the wheel moves, it's not Torque anymore it's Work, which over <whatever> duration is Power.

    Take all the twisted explanations of Torque vs. Power and throw them in the garbage. If there's motion or time, it's not torque.
    Last edited by RangerGress; 09-11-2019 at 01:07 PM.

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  6. #25
    MAS
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerGress View Post
    Car enthusiasts have long had problems with understanding the difference between hp and torque. It's not about gears. It's about movement and time. Torque has no movement or time. So as long as you're not talking about movement or time, you can talk about torque all you want. But as soon as there's movement or time, it's not torque. Examples:

    You take a torque wrench set at 100lb-ft and put in on one of your wheels. That's 100lb-ft of honest torque. Sure neither wheel nor truck will move, but you're entirely accurate calling it 100lb ft of torque.

    Now set the wrench at 200lb-ft and put it on a wheel. Lets say the wheel rotates a bit so your truck moves an inch. This is no longer torque because there is movement. What you have accomplished is "work". Divide the # by how long it took you to move that inch and you have power. The only way you can accurately talk torque, in that scenario, is to say that it took 200lb ft to get the truck moving.

    Another example. You put 100lb-ft on the wheel for 30secs and I put 100lb-ft on the wheel for 10yrs. It's the same amount of torque, no matter that I worked a helova lot harder then you did. It's the same because there is no time in torque.

    What we call torque is really hp at low rpm. Lets call it low end grunt. It's just that magazine writers, most of whom are not engineers, don't know any better. They don't understand the difference between lb-ft (torque) and ftlbs (work). They're so screwed up on this that we've all been brainwashed to call the units of torque "ftlbs". It's like saying "how many miles to Seattle" and someone telling you 300 Watts.

    The reason that gearing changes torque is it's just like having a longer torque wrench on that wheel. But that doesn't change the fact that as soon as the wheel moves, it's not Torque anymore it's Work, which over <whatever> duration is Power.

    Take all the twisted explanations of Torque vs. Power and throw them in the garbage. If there's motion or time, it's not torque.
    If torque has nothing to do with it after It starts moving can you explain how/why lower hp engine with a lot of torque perform/seem to perform better than an engine with more hp but significantly less torque?

  7. #26
    RAM Professional RangerGress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAS View Post
    If torque has nothing to do with it after It starts moving can you explain how/why lower hp engine with a lot of torque perform/seem to perform better than an engine with more hp but significantly less torque?
    Sure. Look at the hp/rpm curve. The torquey engine will have lots of power at low rpm. Power is proportional to rpm. So in order to get lots of power out of a high rpm engine, you gotta get the engine up to high rpm. That's why diesel engines are nice to tow with. They have good power at low rpm. No one wants to tow for hours at 5000rpm. Sure, diesel engines don't have much power, but what power they have is very "usable", meaning the power is at rpms we're comfortable driving at. Sure, the Hemi has lots of power, but ya gotta wind up the RPM to get it. The Hemi isn't designed to give you a large fraction of it's peak hp, hour after hour, because it's not designed to spend much of it's life at the high rpm that would give you that power. The diesel is designed to spend much of it's life at a fair fraction of it's peak rpm. So us humans perceive the diesel's power as more "usable".
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    RAM Professional RangerGress's Avatar
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    I went looking for dyno charts, EcoD vs. Hemi. The EcoD shows ~150hp @ ~2200rpm. The Hemi shows [email protected]

    150hp doesn't sound like a lot, but it's more than most folks think. Freeway cruising prob takes only 10-15hp. So here we have our little EcoD with 240hp showing quite well against the big Hemi and it's >400hp. In the RPM range people actually use, the EcoD does quite well because as a turbo diesel it has good low rpm power.

    In order to put out more power than the EcoD, the Hemi has to go >4k rpm. How often does that happen? I've not floored the throttle of a daily driver in years. I don't normally need a lot of power.

    The problem is that marketing depts and magazine writers don't want to talk about hp in the context of diesels because the #'s are low. So they talk instead about (instantaneous) torque #'s which sound bigger. And it works because folks don't know any better.
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    RAM Silver Member Bounty Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjordan4477 View Post
    Can someone post a link to a trusted oil cooler they recommend?
    I use this one 26 X 7 X 3.5 Inch cooler - CFT Performance INC. , I tried smaller coolers and they simply didn't cool enough. I also use CFT's adapter plate to replace the stock oil cooler. I run a 180º Derale oil thermostat as well.

    The Science of Towing-26x7x35200__88398.1536932994.jpg
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  10. #29
    RAM Jr Member pjordan4477's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bounty Hunter View Post
    I use this one 26 X 7 X 3.5 Inch cooler - CFT Performance INC. , I tried smaller coolers and they simply didn't cool enough. I also use CFT's adapter plate to replace the stock oil cooler. I run a 180º Derale oil thermostat as well.
    Who did the install?
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  11. #30
    Super Moderator VernDiesel's Avatar
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    RG By your own description you need both. There is no movement without first having the required torque to move it. Without adequate torque what would be 1000 hp doesn’t budge. No work (HP) is done without first having adequate torque. Aren’t these irrefutable physics facts?

    However you may be able to help explain or deepen my understanding of this; Do you not also first need adequate torque when load (torque requirement?) is increased while moving? (Be it a headwind or a grade). Gearing aside for a second. Mfgrs do rate or dyno different amounts of torque at different rpms. (As well as different HP at different rpms) It seems as long as there is adequate torque what we call horsepower accelerates your truck. And more horsepower accelerates it quicker & faster to the end of it power or peak power range for that gear.
    Airstream TT & boat transporter. Factory trailer brake controller tow mirrors & hitch camera, B&M GN turnover ball, Andersen 5er adapter, WDH with built in sway control & steel adjustable hitch, Axle to frame air bags, GDE engine & transmission tunes plus turbo brake, SLT Grill, 275/55/20 XL load tires, Max ED tow rating 9,200, combined axle rating 7,800, Max 4th gen 1500 CVWR 15,950, Max receiver tongue weight 1265 w WDH, CAT scales 3,300 steer 2,560 drive with me hitches & tools

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