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From my perspective it has no impact. FCA originally said we needed an oil with a 30 weight viscosity when it was hot and then changed it to 40 weight when hot. I would not do to a lower viscosity when hot than 40 which is now specified for our trucks, Now if there was a 0w40 I would be happy with that since it is thick (viscous)_enough when hot as indicated by the 40 and the 0 vs 5 is irrelevent in terms of lubing the engine and can only be better than 5Wxxx.
 

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Mobil 1 has a 0w40 I use in my daughter's Audi, spec'd more for European cars. Not a diesel spec oil.

I think ustuplay is volunteering to do a long-term test using 0w16 in his Eco and reporting back.
 

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Have 0w40 Amsoil Signature in my truck now...Howie is correct...40 is the necessary concern..0-5 irrelevant here in Florida however I chose the 0w because of the thinness and possibility the quicker 0.073 seconds it will circulate versus 5w may just be enough to prevent my ED from pooping a bearing out the tailpipe...

Also have always run 11qts to increase oil psi 1-2 to help prevent the delicate bearings from deciding they are tired of functioning...
 

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I've done a LOT of research on oils over my years as a motorcycle racer and I see the same misconceptions repeated by very smart folks because the information is masked.

[In simple terms]
Oil weights - first number is how it behaves cold at 100F and it's an approximation. To be labeled as 5w, it could behave like a 3w or a 7w. 0w oil could be 2.9w or 0.05w.
- second number is how it behaves hot at 212F and it's an approximation. To be labeled as 40w, it could behave like 36w or 44w. Difference between 30w and 40w could be as little as 2w.

The amount of oil in a crankcase makes no difference in oil pressure. If it does, you are in real trouble. The oil pump sucks in oil when the oil pickup is submerged, pumps it through the system at a given pressure and some of that depends on the 'thickness" of the oil and restrictions in the system, it doesn't know how much oil is actually available. And more pressure isn't necessarily better.

European Oil Synthetic standard means the oil is "real" synthetic. The big USA companies LIE when they say synthetic oil. It's really highly refined dyno juice.
 

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Also have always run 11qts to increase oil psi 1-2 to help prevent the delicate bearings from deciding they are tired of functioning...
Extra oil does nothing to increase your oil pressure. Having too little oil is about the only way oil level can affect oil pressure. But if you sleep better at night then go for it!
 

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Extra oil does nothing to increase your oil pressure. Having too little oil is about the only way oil level can affect oil pressure. But if you sleep better at night then go for it!
..that was tongue-n-cheek....sorry for the confusion...truthfully.... Mobil-1 has demonstrated studies that 0w30 is more fuel efficient over the life of an oil change versus 5w30...0w was once more expensive but that is no longer the case either...

What RansomT is trying to articulating is the Castrol VS Mobil-1 Lawsuit Settled in 2007 being.... a manufacturer can label dino oils as "fully synthetic". It is NOT a lie...it was a legal decision in Ths US Supreme Court setting Federal president/law define as newly engineered oil using modern technology could be labeled synthetic here in the USA.

The difference is simple...not complex..."Fully Synthetic" is a Base Stock 3 or 4 blend (T6)....extra refining by cracking the hydro-carbons...whereas...."100% Synthetic" is Base Stock 4 and/or 5 (Amsoil)...it requires much more pressure in the refining logarithm to crack more carbons...the difference is clearly on the label 'fully' vs '100%'.

By definition ALL oil is Dino/Organic in some form...simple organic chemistry...whether it is made from compressed natural gas (rotting vegetation in the Earth's crust) OR pumped out of the Earth (Rotting dinosaur and other organic material)....it is the refining after it is pumped out of the ships hull that will dictate how is is labeled afterwards...to claim it is not Dino oil is simply false and very misleading.

I can also attest the amount of oil in a crank case DOES make a difference...doing my own changes on a Genesis 3.8 v6 I thought it was 5.5 qts. Stupid me ended up blowing out a seal and oil all over the engine by 145,000 miles...thankfully my $200 dollar asinine mistake didn't hurt the engine because when the car was totaled at 252k.

At 223,000 UOA of 0w20 demonstrated the engine was running in mint condition...even though the specs of the engine was 5w30....started running 0w20 at 30,000 miles....maybe motorcycle oils differ...IDK...I do know Delo 15w40 has always worked great in my Recons and Rancher...

View attachment 09 GENESIS-031816.pdf
 

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That article from Amsoil talks of the benefits of going "thin".

What about the negatives?
I think there are no negatives if the engine is designed for it. Improved manufacturing standards and improved lubricating oil additives and additive blending have made these lower viscosity oils perform well when both are designed properly. My Pacifica minivan with the PEntastar V6 uses 0w20 oil. I the same oil is specified when the engine is installed in a 1500 also.

I find the sophistication of the oil pump on the Pentastar quite interesting. It also has a real oilpressure sending unit and readout and you can see the pressure jump from the 31 psi low range to about a 70 psi high range depending upon engine RPM.The following is clipped from PEntatar.com

A chain-driven, vane-type variable displacement oil pump adjusts the flow rate and pressure as commanded by the engine management system, which uses a solenoid to drive the pump into low or high pressure mode. For example, below 3,500 rpm, the pump conserves energy by using low pressure; at speeds over 3,500 rpm, the pump switches to high pressure.

A force balance mechanism inside the oil pump adjusts the size of the pumping chambers to alter oil flow. If the oil is cold, the pump reduces the size of the internal chambers. When the oil is hot and thinner, more oil is needed, and a spring increases the size of the pump chambers. This also saves energy.

The pump is driven at a 1:1 drive ratio; its location under the block is more efficient than an on-crankshaft location. An internal, mechanical ball-and-spring relief valve dumps oil into the sump when needed, for conditions such as a cold start with high engine speed. Both pump and pressure regulation solenoid are non-serviceable.
 

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Mobil 1 has a 0w40 I use in my daughter's Audi, spec'd more for European cars. Not a diesel spec oil.

I think ustuplay is volunteering to do a long-term test using 0w16 in his Eco and reporting back.
Actually, Mobil 1 0W-40 does meet diesel specs for many european manufacturers. It is an excellent product for VW TDI engines and can also handle extended drain intervals due to a TBN of around 11.
 

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I agree, there is nothing wrong about "thin" oils, as long as the engine is designed for it. We see huge shifts over the last 10 -15 years with 20 weight oils. Ford, Toyota for example, they back specced engines for the lighter oil. And even that is a bit of a sham. Viscosity is bracketed. Fort instance SAE shows a 30 weight as approx. 9 to 12 cSt at 100 C. You could have a thick 20 weight and a thin 30 weight with essentially the same viscosity. I run 30 weight in my CTD. Not because Ram says I can but Cummins says I can. I researched it a lot and found that my 10w30 semi synthetic has very similar cold flow properties as a thicker 5w40 group 3 synthetic. This at a substantial cost savings of around 2-3 $ a liter. Yes it is still a 10w but the real world potential for additional cold start up wear is negligible. My truck will long rot away before I run into oil related wear problems.

As for the 0, 5 and 10w. They are set out by tests done at varying temperatures. 0w is tested at -35 C for CCV (ASTM D5293) and Borderline pumping viscosity at-40 C (ASTM D4684). It has to fit into a bracket they have.

Can running a thinner oil give you fuel economy savings? It can but you have to do the math to see if that savings is worth the added oil cost.
 

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I agree, there is nothing wrong about "thin" oils, as long as the engine is designed for it. We see huge shifts over the last 10 -15 years with 20 weight oils. Ford, Toyota for example, they back specced engines for the lighter oil. And even that is a bit of a sham. Viscosity is bracketed. Fort instance SAE shows a 30 weight as approx. 9 to 12 cSt at 100 C. You could have a thick 20 weight and a thin 30 weight with essentially the same viscosity. I run 30 weight in my CTD. Not because Ram says I can but Cummins says I can. I researched it a lot and found that my 10w30 semi synthetic has very similar cold flow properties as a thicker 5w40 group 3 synthetic. This at a substantial cost savings of around 2-3 $ a liter. Yes it is still a 10w but the real world potential for additional cold start up wear is negligible. My truck will long rot away before I run into oil related wear problems.

As for the 0, 5 and 10w. They are set out by tests done at varying temperatures. 0w is tested at -35 C for CCV (ASTM D5293) and Borderline pumping viscosity at-40 C (ASTM D4684). It has to fit into a bracket they have.

Can running a thinner oil give you fuel economy savings? It can but you have to do the math to see if that savings is worth the added oil cost.
Brian,

It seems to me your comments are valid as far as they go. The question I would have is what are the comparative viscosity specs of a semi vs fully synthetic oil at the time of the oil change. A semisynthetic relies more on additives for viscosity control than does a full synthetic and those additives tend to break down during normal usage degrading the original characteristics of the oil.
 

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Howie, that is the idea, full group 3, 4 and 5 oils usually require less additives or viscosity improvers/modifiers to bridge the gap between having a lower "w" value and a higher operating viscosity (ex 0w40). If I could put it so bluntly. The oil should theoretically be more resistant to break down or shear as compared to a conventional/group 2 based oil. For example, Amsoil has a straight 30 weight group 4 oil that without any improvers/modifiers can meet SAE 10w30. That's just how good that base stock is.

But here is my observation splashed with some opinion: Oils have come such a long way that base stock group is really a non issue if you are using a properly specced and quality oil. Some engines shear oil, regardless of quality. 6.0 Powerstrokes are notorious for shearing 40 weights down to a 30 weight in short order. Does not matter if it is conventional 15w40 or synthetic 5w40. Wear is usually not affected but to sidestep this, people run 30 weights, with hold up better in those applications.

The oil change indexes we use for these trucks (mine included) are far short of what the oil can usually handle, unless there is something not operating as designed in the engine. Used oil analysis can show wear data, TBN/TAN, additive levels, etc.

For example, I started using UOA on my 3500. While the engine is still breaking in, the wear metals are still high but the viscosity, fuel, soot and additives should remain consistent for my index (my use is very consistent). The 11 liters of 10w30 oil were changed at 24,000km, the starting viscosity was 12cSt at 100 C. With some heavy use, lots of cold starts, I was at 2.87% fuel (less than Cummins 5% condemnation limit), my end viscosity was 11.47cSt at 100 C and my additives were barely used. Cummins gives the usual bracket for viscosity condemnation, a 30 weight must remain within the 9-13 cSt range (give or take). Other than high wear metals from a still fresh engine, the oil was completely serviceable. Heck, my soot was less than 1%. This is with an inexpensive semi synthetic, PetroCanada Duron SHP. This is a CES 20086 approved oil.

Can we get VM or FCA to give us the condemnation limits for the 3 liter? This will help you compare the numbers on a UOA to that of when VM/FCA thinks your oil is done. Sorry, this post is poorly written at this time of day...
 

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T6 5w40 is a great oil, no doubt about it. Where I live, T6 goes on sale every few months. In the 18.9 liter pails, the price is decent, down around that 6.50$ a liter before tax. I tried to locate Shell bulk dealers in the area and came up empty handed. The website was all but useless at the time in locating such dealers. I gave up. Done.

For the Canadian guys, PetroCanada makes excellent oils. Their bulk dealers are a stones throw in any direction out here. There everyday price on 5w40 is around that 6.50$ a liter before tax and that is in small quantities. Most of their Duron diesel oil line is approved/licenced CES20081/86 among other specs.

I do not know enough about the EcoDiesel to say anything different than what Ram states about the oil type, viscosity and change index. In my case, I bypassed what Ram wanted and went straight to Cummins for their view. I used one of their licenced CES20086 oils, which cost 4.72$ a liter tax in, that had comparable cold flow to 5w40 and returned great wear data. I willingly departed from the norm and possible safety net of warranty to go on what the actual engineers specced for my application.

I will keep digging for more info on the VM engine. I think it is an interesting engine and maybe one day I will have a LD Ram again.
 

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..that was tongue-n-cheek....sorry for the confusion...truthfully.... Mobil-1 has demonstrated studies that 0w30 is more fuel efficient over the life of an oil change versus 5w30...0w was once more expensive but that is no longer the case either...

What RansomT is trying to articulating is the Castrol VS Mobil-1 Lawsuit Settled in 2007 being.... a manufacturer can label dino oils as "fully synthetic". It is NOT a lie...it was a legal decision in Ths US Supreme Court setting Federal president/law define as newly engineered oil using modern technology could be labeled synthetic here in the USA.
shawclan5, You are correct, I shouldn't used the word lie. I should have just stated that the USA oil companies poured millions of dollars into a campaign to legally allow themselves to misrepresent a product and to deceive the American public. Before the ink got dry on the 2007 Supreme Court decision, Mobil reformulated their Base IV synthetics to Base III, it's all about the money.

Rotella is a very fine Base III oil, I've used it for years. But is it the same as a Base V synthetic? My wife's car requires either Base IV or Base V 5w40, the oil change indicator varies on the mileage when to change. I've seen it go as high as 18,000 miles. So can I use Rotella in it? They both say "Synthetic" on the bottle. Of course, I know the difference, but how many consumers or as a matter of fact, repairman actually know the difference?

On the subject of crankcase oil level increasing oil pressure, well I guess it is possible to increase oil pressure if you introduce false resistance in the oil pan. If the crankcase pressure increases due to too much oil in the system, the oil pressure will rise...but it isn't good especially on the gaskets. Remember that pressure is just a sign of resistance in a system, not flow. There are many vehicles in the world that run on near 0 oil pressure for 10s of thousands miles. See all of those scooters in China, they run on splash lubrication.
 

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Didn't know Mobil-1 went backwards after the SCOTUS decision. At 159,000 I filled with Amsoil 0w40 SS, curious to see if my ED will go 20k on 1 change. Will do UOA at 8k and 16k to be consistent with previous hx and change the WIX filter at 10k...we shall see.

IF and IF I can go 20k...than 2 Amsoil changes every 40k will be less overall than 4 Delo 5w40's.

Never used at 100% synthetic base V before...no MPG diff in the first 6k though...
 

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Howie, that is the idea, full group 3, 4 and 5 oils usually require less additives or viscosity improvers/modifiers to bridge the gap between having a lower "w" value and a higher operating viscosity (ex 0w40). If I could put it so bluntly. The oil should theoretically be more resistant to break down or shear as compared to a conventional/group 2 based oil. For example, Amsoil has a straight 30 weight group 4 oil that without any improvers/modifiers can meet SAE 10w30. That's just how good that base stock is.

But here is my observation splashed with some opinion: Oils have come such a long way that base stock group is really a non issue if you are using a properly specced and quality oil. Some engines shear oil, regardless of quality. 6.0 Powerstrokes are notorious for shearing 40 weights down to a 30 weight in short order. Does not matter if it is conventional 15w40 or synthetic 5w40. Wear is usually not affected but to sidestep this, people run 30 weights, with hold up better in those applications.

The oil change indexes we use for these trucks (mine included) are far short of what the oil can usually handle, unless there is something not operating as designed in the engine. Used oil analysis can show wear data, TBN/TAN, additive levels, etc.

For example, I started using UOA on my 3500. While the engine is still breaking in, the wear metals are still high but the viscosity, fuel, soot and additives should remain consistent for my index (my use is very consistent). The 11 liters of 10w30 oil were changed at 24,000km, the starting viscosity was 12cSt at 100 C. With some heavy use, lots of cold starts, I was at 2.87% fuel (less than Cummins 5% condemnation limit), my end viscosity was 11.47cSt at 100 C and my additives were barely used. Cummins gives the usual bracket for viscosity condemnation, a 30 weight must remain within the 9-13 cSt range (give or take). Other than high wear metals from a still fresh engine, the oil was completely serviceable. Heck, my soot was less than 1%. This is with an inexpensive semi synthetic, PetroCanada Duron SHP. This is a CES 20086 approved oil.

Can we get VM or FCA to give us the condemnation limits for the 3 liter? This will help you compare the numbers on a UOA to that of when VM/FCA thinks your oil is done. Sorry, this post is poorly written at this time of day...
I don't have any material arguments with your statements. Additive technology has changed significantly since the days of the first multi viscosity engine oils.

Reference finding detailed info about the Ecodiesel design, it is difficult. I have been unable to find basic data that every engine maker makes available. I wrote VM Motori asking for info and received a reply saying it was proprietary.

Regarding going tot he engine manufacturer for oil specs can be OK if you are sure that the info they provide includes ensuring the oil is OK for the emissions control system too.

All the best,
 
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