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Discussion Starter #1
I'm hesitant to ask this on an ecodiesel forum, but here goes.

With all of the big three offering a 3.0L diesel in a 1/2 ton pick-up we now have a choices other than the ecodiesel. I'm in the market for one and have been looking over the options that will be available. I've owned an eco & liked it so I'm a little biased toward it, but I'm also keeping my mind open to the other choices. I've pretty well eliminated the Ford simply because I'm not a Ford guy & never have been one. I am intrigued by the new GM 3.0L Duramax though.

Here's some of my thinking:

I liked my eco, but always had it in the back of my mind for when is this thing going to blow up! I'm now finding myself wanting another diesel 1500 truck but I am concerned & wondering if ram has fixed the bottom end issues with the new gen-3 engine. Part of what I like about my ram was the air ride suspension & the interior along with the great fuel economy.

The new GM engine has some really interesting engineering in it that makes it look pretty attractive as an alternative to the eco. The down side of the GM is they are still behind the curve on their interiors & don't offer the air ride.

The other down side is both of these engines are newly designed or re-designed. Both of them are an Italian design but will be built in different places, the eco in Italy, the GM in Michigan. Neither of them has a proven track record, other than the previous gen-2 Eco's which had bottom end & emission issues.

I'm thinking that a guy should wait until both of them are on the dealer lots so you can drive both so you can compare & then make up your mind.

What's your thoughts? What would you choose?

Here's link to the new Duramax:

 

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I'll offer a couple comments. First, the following link gives more technical info on the Duramax than I have seen before and the guy explaining it is not much interrupted by the interviewer so he can get a cogent story out there.


Second, yes the engines are new but the Duramax is completely new from a clean sheet design as best I understand it and it contains a number of new technologies. WHile I am sure GM did their best testing it I expect a couple years in the hands of real customers will yield some surprises. The revised ecodiesel has benefited from the previous version of the engine and its problems. I would expect the revised ecodiesel to have fewer problems than the new Duramax.
 

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I would tend to have more faith in the ecodiesel. Ram has had a couple generations of the motor and has had some time to figure out problems and come to some solutions. I know they keep saying about how different the gen 3 is and all the new parts etc. but my bet is they are far more similar than they aren't. Its not a new design its the old design with a few subtle changes.

I wouldn't let the emissions issues be to big a deciding factor, literally every modern diesel I know of that isn't deleted has issues with the emissions stuff sooner or later.

All that said... I don't think I would buy a new one, just to much hate in me towards modern electronics and bs on vehicles, I wanted to buy something older instead of my ecodiesel but the wife wanted something new. I feel like you are tossing the dice with either one you would pick. You have a warranty with either so I would be inclined to try something new and give the GM a go.

That is for no other reason than its what I would do.
 

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Warranty, Experience, Ride Quality, Range, and Price Point specific to model desired are all major factors. Ford way overpriced, GM unproven in North America, and RAM has significant data over 5 years to have learned from.

As a 'Ford Guy' who still owns an X and 20 year old F150, RAM/FCA engineering has drastically improved and produced a great truck. May be interested in the push rod 7.3/F250 some day...or ED Rebel...

One huge factor for me with all 3 making great trucks is the 2009 Federal bailout for GM whereas Ford had the 'testosterone' to walk away and FCA saved CJDR from it's own ineptitude.

Therefore IMO its either Ford or RAM depending on needs and application sought.
 

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Warranty, Experience, Ride Quality, Range, and Price Point specific to model desired are all major factors. Ford way overpriced, GM unproven in North America, and RAM has significant data over 5 years to have learned from.

As a 'Ford Guy' who still owns an X and 20 year old F150, RAM/FCA engineering has drastically improved and produced a great truck. May be interested in the push rod 7.3/F250 some day...or ED Rebel...

One huge factor for me with all 3 making great trucks is the 2009 Federal bailout for GM whereas Ford had the 'testosterone' to walk away and FCA saved CJDR from it's own ineptitude.

Therefore IMO its either Ford or RAM depending on needs and application sought.
There was way more to do with the bailout than an auto maker.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'll offer a couple comments. First, the following link gives more technical info on the Duramax than I have seen before and the guy explaining it is not much interrupted by the interviewer so he can get a cogent story out there.


Second, yes the engines are new but the Duramax is completely new from a clean sheet design as best I understand it and it contains a number of new technologies. WHile I am sure GM did their best testing it I expect a couple years in the hands of real customers will yield some surprises. The revised ecodiesel has benefited from the previous version of the engine and its problems. I would expect the revised ecodiesel to have fewer problems than the new Duramax.
Lot's of good information in that clip. Very interesting way of doing things especially on the emissions & the short air flow path to the liquid cooled intercooler, this should result in less turbo lag.

Another thing I didn't mention in my OP was transmissions.

Ram is still using the ZF 8 speed, it's time proven by all the different vehicles it's been used in including BMW, Rolls Royce, Bentley & FCA on several models to name a few. Where as the ten speed in the GM & ford are a collaborative engineered transmission between ford, gm & a German firm. The main difference between the two transmissions is GM & ford use their own operating software systems to control it. It's a fairly new transmission that doesn't have a track record yet to see if there is problems that might crop-up in the diesel applications.
 

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The trans has been running in the fords for quite some time and even in some of the GM's I believe. Also its not backed any diesels other than the ford 3.0 to this point, but it has been behind a boat load of 3.5 ecoboosts which throw down more HP and torque than any of the diesel options I believe.

Not that I have anything against the ZF, but I think the 10-speed is doing well.
 

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Warranty, Experience, Ride Quality, Range, and Price Point specific to model desired are all major factors. Ford way overpriced, GM unproven in North America, and RAM has significant data over 5 years to have learned from.

As a 'Ford Guy' who still owns an X and 20 year old F150, RAM/FCA engineering has drastically improved and produced a great truck. May be interested in the push rod 7.3/F250 some day...or ED Rebel...

One huge factor for me with all 3 making great trucks is the 2009 Federal bailout for GM whereas Ford had the 'testosterone' to walk away and FCA saved CJDR from it's own ineptitude.

Therefore IMO its either Ford or RAM depending on needs and application sought.

Chrysler had two bailouts - one in the 1980's and the more recent Dec 2008. I think all three took US government (taxpayer) monies during the 2008 downturn.
 

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Great questions I have pondered for a few months now. Since I also want to replace my truck, the answers are intriguing.

Firs money is a factor for me. The GM vehicles are noticeably high priced here in South Florida with little discounts. That is a big issue as I am not able to pay $50,000 for a 1/2 ton pickup - INCLUDING title, tax, rip-off dealer fees and transfer. The add on more for a cap and all the simple accessories I want. Ford is stupidly expensive and it seems GM is also. From that issue alone it stops at the FCA product but I wlill check.

Next is the important issue of getting rid of the EGR and DEF systems. Right now i know nothing about either one from the standpoint of turning off the EGR and DEF systems. Unless or until I find out what can be done with either one, I would buy neither. That issue is a major factor to me as I will not operate a diesel with the EGR system trashing the engine. Don't care if it has both high pressure and low pressure systems as both the GM and FCA versions will have. That EGR system of sooting the engine is crap. When I bought my Ecodiesel I was stupid on the issue GED saved my bad decision of buying the Ecodiesel and turned it around to a good one. Without someone's tune they are both losers in my book.

Mechanically the GM has had issues with their air conditioners and transmissions. Do not know about the new 10 speed but have been hearing trouble. Air conditioners are still crap and break often Here in Florida mine is on 365 each year. Another issue. The FCA ZF transmission is good but service on one is hideous and maybe less than that. No dipstick's with no filler and horrible re-fill procedures are complete loser. Yet, they seem to take a "licking' and keep on ticking".

I flat out love the in-line GM design. Real shame my experience with local dealers of GM products is at best - horrible meat factories waiting to skewer you. Seems like all the ones around Tampa are like that.

Surely following the upcoming tests and will soon start the dealer visitations to learn more.
 

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I'm very upset with both FCA and GM for the major delays after introduction of both of these 3.0 L diesels. The GM was presented almost TWO years ago - late 2017 into 2018 was the start of their presentation. Then nothing. Go to a GM dealer today and you get a bunch of babble about when it might be here. Been like that for near two years now. FCA is not far behind. Been near two years that an improved diesel for the 1500 class pickups has been available, with the exception of Ford. Ford is a mess. End of opinion there.

Now the GM uses Denso injectors. I would assume that means the fuel pump is Denso also. Not positive but that is a factor with the Bosch problems of the CP4 pump used in our Ecodiesels and now the Cummins. For many that is a major fear related to reliability. Our Bosch injectors are poorly designed and allow major debris to collect in block threads above the injector threads. Replacement of our Bosch injectors often involves destruction of the head. I have no clue about how the Denso stuff works for GM but it is in their new Duramax big diesel. Sad that there are no American injector pump manufacturers in the loop. Jap or German seem to be the only options. I like neither.

Gonna be a tough decision.
 

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Chrysler had two bailouts - one in the 1980's and the more recent Dec 2008. I think all three took US government (taxpayer) monies during the 2008 downturn.
And the banks, airlines, et.al.? Chrysler closed 25% of US dealers AND needed Fiat for Survival. GM on the other hand was held up as the example of the previous Emperor and Holiness saving American jobs and industry. Research how many retirement funds and retires were completely screwed by GMs sellout to BHO the Great...that is why as a consumer they died to my consideration in 2009.

BTW...CJDR was owned by German company at one time...after Iaccoa drove it into the ground with his 'Generic' K car. The great thing about FREEdom we as consumers can choose what we want for whatever reason we choose to justify our purchase. My wife grew up off Willy's PKWY in Toledo and knew plenty of the UAW knucklehead workers who thought it was funny to put a screw or nut in the door before they put the panel on in the factory, knowing it would drive the future buyer crazy with a 'mystery noise'. Stupid childish garbage like that ruined the 'big 3' from the 80s until ??? Oh and all the local news investigative reporters capturing UAM workers smoking pot and enjoying a 'liquid lunch' at GM factories in recent years? See my initial criteria to the OP premise.

BBC NEWS | Business | Chrysler to close 25% of dealers
 

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this post was meant for The Cap!

buy a gasser save the bucks and spend it on fuel and don't worry, be happy! If I remember what you tow correctly I think a PEntastar will pull what you tow.
 

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buy a gasser save the bucks and spend it on fuel and don't worry, be happy! If I remember what you tow correctly I think a PEntastar will pull what you tow.
Borderline. Only thing is I would be dealing with two major negatives. Fuel mileage with any gasser might put me in the poorhouse. I do have that tractor trailer but it is little more than the small toy hauler I tow. Gassers are horrible to tow anything with let alone towing the toy hauler with motorcycles thousands of miles across the country on a hunt. I would need a larger engine if only to keep my wife quiet. She is the second reason. No way will she tolerate less than near highway speeds going up hills. Out West those hills can be tens or even hundreds of miles long into the wind and up elevation. Bet a gasser would yield 7 mpg and I would be stopping every 150 miles for gas. No way is it safe to carry an extra fuel tank of gas.

Want to get another diesel or deal with an end-of-life major lifestyle change. Been driving ONLY diesels since 1991. Even riding in a gasoline vehicle, except for being ON motorcycles, is a horrible experience. I like the Pentastar motor. Just do not like how it runs.
 

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Borderline. Only thing is I would be dealing with two major negatives. Fuel mileage with any gasser might put me in the poorhouse. I do have that tractor trailer but it is little more than the small toy hauler I tow. Gassers are horrible to tow anything with let alone towing the toy hauler with motorcycles thousands of miles across the country on a hunt. I would need a larger engine if only to keep my wife quiet. She is the second reason. No way will she tolerate less than near highway speeds going up hills. Out West those hills can be tens or even hundreds of miles long into the wind and up elevation. Bet a gasser would yield 7 mpg and I would be stopping every 150 miles for gas. No way is it safe to carry an extra fuel tank of gas.

Want to get another diesel or deal with an end-of-life major lifestyle change. Been driving ONLY diesels since 1991. Even riding in a gasoline vehicle, except for being ON motorcycles, is a horrible experience. I like the Pentastar motor. Just do not like how it runs.
OK Cap, I am teasing you and do not want to get into an argument. I understand you want a diesel, to hell with the economics, much like I want a Longhorn, to hell with what it costs. That said if I accept your numbers, and do the arithmetic-assuming the option for the 33 gallon tank- I find the following

1-7 mpg yields a range of 221 so effectively 200 or a stop every 3 hours or so for fuel.

2-Using $5000 as the extrra cost of the diesel and its maintenance and its GDE tune over the life of the vehicle (very conservative number I think) and assuming $3.00 per gallong for gas the $5000 buys you the gas for about 12,000 miles of towing. I expect the cost difference between diesel and gas will about offset the mileage difference when driving the truck essentially empty.

Thank God we can still almost buy what we want if we can afford it, although your new truck will have the interlock to protect you from leaving the vehicle while it is still in gear. UGH!!!!
 

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OK Cap, I am teasing you and do not want to get into an argument. I understand you want a diesel, to hell with the economics, much like I want a Longhorn, to hell with what it costs. That said if I accept your numbers, and do the arithmetic-assuming the option for the 33 gallon tank- I find the following

1-7 mpg yields a range of 221 so effectively 200 or a stop every 3 hours or so for fuel.

2-Using $5000 as the extrra cost of the diesel and its maintenance and its GDE tune over the life of the vehicle (very conservative number I think) and assuming $3.00 per gallong for gas the $5000 buys you the gas for about 12,000 miles of towing. I expect the cost difference between diesel and gas will about offset the mileage difference when driving the truck essentially empty.

Thank God we can still almost buy what we want if we can afford it, although your new truck will have the interlock to protect you from leaving the vehicle while it is still in gear. UGH!!!!
So I can't get a manual transmission? People will learn from the banter.

Think we went to different schools together.
 

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The 2020 Silverado 1500 Diesel 3.0 v6 get insane fuel mileage.

33 MPG on highway, 24 MPG city. It will be the best fuel mileage of any half ton pick up truck currently on the market.

in term of fuel effeciency i would class them like this.

1.2020 silverado
2.Ram Ecodiesel
3.2020 F-150 3.0 Powerstroke diesel
 

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I have absolutely no confidence or trust in any vehicle manufacture that said, my ram is my second newer dodge product I've had not counting a 70's short wide with a 440 4sp transplant in it.
Currently the little eco diesel in my ram is my favorite small truck engine, it has run smoothly and efficiently for me.
The only thing that has really irritated me with my ram is the transfer case, with rams asinine programing in the computer to control the mickey mouse clutch in the transfer case I have cussed this truck several times.
That said I have been eagerly waiting for GMs in line 6 to arrive.
Then when I get to looking and digging into it a bit deeper I find that GM has gone and decided that these miserable clutch operated transfer cases controlled by a damned computer is the way to go,
and on top of that the low range portion is an option, and that is the only transfer cases available in the GM they just took themselves out of the play for me.
It looks to me that I'll be contemplating a Rebel with the eco diesel for my next one.

The torque curve of the diesel is my reason for buying them, yes some of the gassers have great hp numbers but they are all so high in the rpm range that personally I don't enjoy running them.
The low end torque curve of a diesel makes an engine that I'm comfortable driving and running, the increased fuel efficiency is a huge draw also.
On top of that anyone that routinely drives a vehicle so low on fuel that it only has 20-50 miles left to be able to go will get stranded and deservedly so.
 

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Driveability is huge for me. Engine and transmission mating makes the whole driving experience. My Eco is far more enjoyable to drive over the 2018 5.3 gasser GMC Sierra work truck I drive. The transmission is not well mated. Horrible shifts up and down. I can't wait to get out of it at the end of the day.I doubt GM will make the Duramax and 10 spd any different.
 

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The only thing that has really irritated me with my ram is the transfer case, with rams asinine programing in the computer to control the mickey mouse clutch in the transfer case I have cussed this truck several times.
There is actually two options for this. There is a guy Brandon W over on RamForum that sells a lock up switch for the BW44-44 transfer case.
With AlfaOBD it is possible to change out the transfer case to the BW44-45
 
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