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Waiting for my wife to shop after church this morning and there sits an article in Diesel Magazine about the pump failures. Remember, the Ecodiesel has a CP4 injector pump while the new 2019 Cummins has the CP4.2. Duramax and Powerstroke also use that pump. ALL suffer with major and catastrophic fuel pump failures. Why? Their answer is AIR.

Seems operators of these vehicles, look in the mirror you Ecodiesel owners, sometimes run their fuel low. In comes air to the system. When changing the fuel filters ( some way too often) you run the risk of air into the system. The Duramax is often a serious source of this problem as it has a bit of a lengthy prime system to get the fuel in and the diesel out. Cheat on the procedure and air gets into the system. Some owners even rev the engines up if there's an immediate problem to hopefully keep things running. That just exacerbates the issue of wear caused by air.

Our Ecodiesels have a priming sequence. You hasten that and there you go, air into the system. Makes me believe some of us owners have caused their issues with frequent or improper fuel filter changes.

In that article there are literally pages of drawings and horror stories of Ford and GM diesels trashed by shrapnel when the CP4.2's come apart. We know of some with our Ecodiesels described on this forum. Air is good for you. Air is not good for the injector pumps. Prime slowly and repeatedly when changing fuel filters. Somehow hope and check that shop mechanics do the same. Good luck there. Do not run with a low fuel level that could create a problem Good luck there also for some operators.

These fuel pumps pump fuel. Give them what they want.
 

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I had a friend with a Cummins who killed his pump from improper or no priming after a filter change. At least 6 key cycles for me after a filter change. Maybe I will do 8 key cycles next time. Never again will I see how many miles that I can get on a tank, either. 100 miles range left, heading to fill up.
 

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Air, water, small particles, etc. Basically anything other than clean cool fuel can hurt a cp4 pump it has extremely tight tolerances. Its very easy to contaminate a fuel filter when changing one out. Over maintaining some things can hurt them.
 

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I see this all the time on the other site I hang out at, Fiat, where it seems to be an Olympic sport to try to get max miles before the engine quits. When my Eco gets below 1/2 I am typically looking for a pump. Same with the little Spider since it only holds 10 gallons of high test.
 

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Never understood the need to run until empty. I’m looking to fill any of my vehicles at the latest when they get to 1/4 tank. Remember the fuel also cools the electric fuel pump in the tank and heat is not it’s friend.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I had a friend with a Cummins who killed his pump from improper or no priming after a filter change. At least 6 key cycles for me after a filter change. Maybe I will do 8 key cycles next time. Never again will I see how many miles that I can get on a tank, either. 100 miles range left, heading to fill up.
That was probably with the more robust CP3 pump. Still goes to show, nothing is indestructible. Just when they go there's not so much damage - usually.

Agree with all of you. Some do over maintenance. Some do little and in this case it might be a good thing. Some have others do the work. What they know anyhow they work is the unknown you just might pay for. Interesting but I am due to change out my fuel filter at the 30K mark, along with another oil change - this week of so. You can bet I will prime, prime and prime some more.
 

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Waiting for my wife to shop after church this morning and there sits an article in Diesel Magazine about the pump failures. Remember, the Ecodiesel has a CP4 injector pump while the new 2019 Cummins has the CP4.2. Duramax and Powerstroke also use that pump. ALL suffer with major and catastrophic fuel pump failures. Why? Their answer is AIR.

Seems operators of these vehicles, look in the mirror you Ecodiesel owners, sometimes run their fuel low. In comes air to the system. When changing the fuel filters ( some way too often) you run the risk of air into the system. The Duramax is often a serious source of this problem as it has a bit of a lengthy prime system to get the fuel in and the diesel out. Cheat on the procedure and air gets into the system. Some owners even rev the engines up if there's an immediate problem to hopefully keep things running. That just exacerbates the issue of wear caused by air.

Our Ecodiesels have a priming sequence. You hasten that and there you go, air into the system. Makes me believe some of us owners have caused their issues with frequent or improper fuel filter changes.

In that article there are literally pages of drawings and horror stories of Ford and GM diesels trashed by shrapnel when the CP4.2's come apart. We know of some with our Ecodiesels described on this forum. Air is good for you. Air is not good for the injector pumps. Prime slowly and repeatedly when changing fuel filters. Somehow hope and check that shop mechanics do the same. Good luck there. Do not run with a low fuel level that could create a problem Good luck there also for some operators.

These fuel pumps pump fuel. Give them what they want.
Interesting Cap. Can you shed any light on how they concluded air is the issue? Is it just a theory or is it proven or somewhere in between?
 

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Never understood the need to run until empty. I’m looking to fill any of my vehicles at the latest when they get to 1/4 tank.
Agree!....but maybe for other reasons. When the Zombie Apocalypse (or Russian invasion or the "big one" earthquake or fill in the blank) hits, I don't want to run out to the truck to start my run for the hills with a low fuel tank.
 

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I often wonder about improper priming. On my HD, I key the ignition a few times and then tip it in but turn it back when it tries to start. This cycles the pump longer. So far so good. But we have it lucky with an in tank lift pump. Not like several years of the Dmax with no lift pump, one fuel filter and a small hand pump on it.

With an in tank, if one has a fuel line compromised, we should get a leak, not an air intrusion.
 

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OK, that changes things for me. I was just about to order another fuel filter to do with my oil change. Would have been a 20k interval. I was even considering doing at each oil change. Filters are cheap ( IMO, compared to fuel system repairs ) and I don't mind doing them. A clean fuel system is a happy fuel system.

But with this new info, looks like I'll be waiting. Maybe less is better in this case.

On the bright side, living in the mountains my fuel never go's below 1/4. Also refilling fuel systems by hand pumping or cycling the key is old school for me. Being in the heavy equipment field for 25 years, and filling filters that are 10 times larger than ours I am used to keying 25+ times to get the fuel circulated. I typically cycle my key 12 -15 times.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Interesting Cap. Can you shed any light on how they concluded air is the issue? Is it just a theory or is it proven or somewhere in between?
Picked up that magazine, think it was "Diesel" magazine. Now wish I had bought it as the article was maybe 6 pages or more long. I did not read it all but at least four pages showed pictures of dissected pumps with comments on the failure cause. One thing I seem to remember was a comment of a part that loosens and moves when air is introduced in to that pump. They said a possible solution was to have a keyway for that part.

Maybe someone here knows more about that magazine, has a copy and can provide specific details?
 

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Here's some details from a great deal of study and even more speculation from the TDIclub.com.

I tried to post the pictures in the first post but all I got was text. So, here's the link instead - CR engine HPFP analysis - TDIClub Forums The part that ought to be keyed is the tiny roller shown in the second picture of that first post. That roller rides on the cam. The two are responsible for pressurizing the fuel and pulsing it to the rail. When a failure occurs, it's usually that tiny roller delaminating and sending crap throughout the fuel system.

The largest issue that the VW mechanics have determined is that the scar rating on our fuel is well below the recommended scar rating from Bosch. Scar rating is the inverse to the number of cycles needed for a stainless steel ball to scar the metal plate it's rubbing against. Our fuel is set at a maximum of 520 microns while Bosch is recommending on higher than 460 microns. The higher the number, the worse the lubricity.

Some of this is my conjecture based on 9+ years of belonging to the other site and driving my VW diesel with the CP4 pump. I am not a mechanic.

Here, also, is the Spicer report where he looked at different additives. http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

No where have I seen any comments about air in the system causing the wear issues, but is makes as much sense as all of the other speculations. The only way to fully prove any of the ideas is to have identical engines running side by side and see what you have to so to make one fail.
 

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I tried to post the pictures in the first post but all I got was text.










I don't know if those were the pictures you wanted to post, but I ain't eeeeeeeeeeeeven going through 145 pages! So, what you do is: Right click on the image. Then click on "Copy image address." Then you come back here and type in
which lets the forum know that that's the end of the information.

Well, I guess not. Looks like they have some kind of privacy setting. So let's try this: Right click on the image then select "Search Google for image." Aha! That brings up the image which was located elsewhere. Let's see if the image tags work now.




Much better! But I ain't looking all of them up.





Snooty ass TDi people.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Yeah. Kind of like the magazine article I read with the pictures. Saw a comment on this thread about air getting into the pump and causing a part to turn and then come apart. That is essentially what I remember from that magazine article with pictures of the part and a speculation it could be fixed with the addition of a keyway.

Thanks.
 

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Capt.... To add a little more fuel to the fire ,Apparently it’s not that simple to just add a key way..Edlebrock came up with a fix and a patent from stopping the piston from turning in a Circular pattern , But Bosch refuses to pay what Edlebrock is wanting for a royalty /patent fee ...It’s all about the Benjamin’s :mad:
 

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Interesting that VW, Daimler, and BMW are not listed as plaintiffs. All have used the CP 4.x pumps in their diesels for North America since at least 2007. If I were the judge, I would really question the language of the lawsuit. Specifically on the terms of 100k miles before failure. part of our discussion on the VW side is if the roller in the pump was designed as a wear item that would have to be replaced at some specific mileage. Also, most of the failures in the VWs have been well before 100k miles. Some were within a few miles of driving off the dealers' lots.
 

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To me the biggest concern with the entire CP4.2 ordeal is that Bosch was clear in it's pump specs of a fuel needing a certain SCAR rating, more or less fuel of a certain lubricity, GM, Ford, VW, FCA, etc, all have access to this information and put the pump on anyway. Knowing that american diesel fuel doesn't conform to the minimum standard required for this pump. Raises some concern to me about the amount of trust we have in the people deciding which parts to use in the production of vehicles.
 

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Well I just read Bosch upgraded the Cp4.2 pump with a larger roller for the cam and they added a key slot to prevent the piston from spinning... Time to sit back and eat some popcorn and wait to see how it all plays out :). BTW I’m very happy to own a Cummins with the Cp3 pump :eek:
 
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