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That is a very nice looking file. Thanks for posting it Hammer. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
you're welcome, I wasn't the creator, can't find the source but I modified a few things, the weight of diesel, fixed the formula to work in gdocs/open office, added the GCAWR sections, made a few notes, I'm probably going to add the measurements for wheel wells at Drivers Front and Drivers Rear and see if I can make some formula from that by figuring out chassis stiffness. Would be nice "if X tongue weight, X weight is moved to/from front axle". You should be able to do this by knowing the chassis stiffness and the torque applied at the WDH head... maybe invent a device to put in-between to measure that torque and confirm with scales, eliminate the need for scales..... cool invention but tons of work and a dream only.
 

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So I plugged in my numbers and results are consistent with what I already know, that is I'm touch over GVWR by couple hundred pounds the trailer I am towing has an empty weight of 4,700 lbs, fully loaded ready to go camping, scale weight for the trailer is 6,020 lbs with 700 lbs of people, hitch and stuff in the truck. So based on this I either;
A. Find a smaller lighter trailer
B. Remove cargo from both camper and the truck
C. Accept the results and move on.

Like I stated I have scaled out my truck, fully loaded ready to go with everybody on board so I know my truck weight. I also know my trailer weight fully loaded and know the combined weight and I am ~1,000 lbs under max GCWR weight. My hitch weight % based on scale weight is 11%, not much of the trailer weight is being transferred onto the truck. My TT is one of the lightest I could find for it's given length, 24 foot, so the choose is to go smaller? I also need to re-weigh it as I have been busy adding storage options to the camper to improve internal storage, this should be interesting.

The questions I have are those that are pulling 6,000+ lb dry weight trailers must be overweight and are accepting it?

The other thing about this spreadsheet, need to know how much weight you are adding to both the truck and trailer, so you would need weigh each item before adding it or take it to the scale after loading which defeats purpose of the spreadsheet?
Again short of scaling out how do you find hitch weight short of using the bathroom scale method? Unfortunately the spreadsheet requires bits of information that I feel you need to get from scaling out, so if scaling out the answer is already there.
Spreadsheet is interesting not sure some folks will need it, those that do think they understand how to fill it out or would use it?
 

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Easiest thing would be to leave the kids at home!
I was thinking how much fun it would be to get the wife to hoop on the scale before she gets into the truck. :eek:
 

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After that move, I know who would get left behind for the camping trip! Or maybe it would become a one way trip?
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I wouldn't worry about the GVW, you can make the GVW more or less whatever you want if you want to be a dumbass and have zero tongue weight right? so you get jacked up for GVW... hole on let me adjust my bars and I'll get the weight onto my trailer for the scales, then pull off and put it back lol... theoretically. so what's the GVW all about? a recommendation that the truck will pull this GVW without over heating or bla bla bla, while the axle rating is the one "go over this and things break". I'd be more concerned about the GAW vs GAWR. GVW can be managed if you have the weight distributed equally on the axles... that's what I'd wager Vern would say.

I like the spreadsheet because it gives me an idea on what to target for tongue weight and then you take that weight and try to get as much as possible onto the front axle. I've never heard anyone say anything great about a low tongue weight and most people I talk to prefer the high side of the tongue weight, it's just a matter of getting it put on the front axle.

it's been a long time since I've done this, and I've never really set it up alone nor have we used scales in my family, so don't quote me, it's just my understanding of it.

In the near future, I'm about to hookup to an Avenger 27DBS which weighs 6,568 lbs empty... I used that spreadsheet knowing my curb weight (5,540) and cargo weights (wife, two dogs, hitch and fuel) about 350lbs total so I have 1,110 (lets just say 1,000lbs). That means conservatively I can load on a 6,600lb at 15% tongue weight or go over the GVW and add more trailer or lower the tongue to 13% and get 7,700lbs or some combination in a simplistic math conceptual study.

I'm going to ask the rental company to leave the water tank empty although they claim it's 7,500lbs full, no sense in lugging that water around when there's water to fill-up on the campground before parking it. that lets me put about 1000lbs into the trailer.

Theoretically/geometrically speaking:
Ram wants you to keep the tongue weight below 1200lbs. First of all that's an incredible amount of weight considering the capacity is 1,400lbs so you're putting all but 200lbs on the axle and from my comps that's approaching a 10,000lb trailer with nothing in the truck or an 8,000lb trailer at 15% or (as I just said 9,230 at 13%. The hitch is rated beyond what you should put on it for GVWR but a lot closer to the axle rating if you blow off GVW.

The trick is to get under 1,200lbs on the tongue and get as much forward axle weight as you can and all your payload (less people and pets) into the truck. I got a quad cab to keep the weight down and forward. The "payload" is 1,400lbs, but for me it's 1,410 based on curb weight (theoretical capacity). I know my weight because of the config will be fore not aft like a crew would be so I'll need less leverage on the WDH to move the same weight forward or technically get more trailer/cargo weight.

It's just not simple because people and inside cargo on a quad cab loads up the rear axle more than the front, geometrically. crew cab loads it further back. Logically if you put max payload in the truck, you get over GVW but have plenty of axle rating left so THEN you goto axle rating and split the weight fore and aft with your WDH... geometrically/theory.

Ideally, right, you want low curb weight and load up the cargo or add a ton of distributed trailer weight which is why people buy base trucks to crank on the weight.

I want to figure out how this truck takes weight by using scales to confirm it, not spend a lot of time going back and forth as my weights change. for me, my goal ist scales to confirm math equations.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
sorry I dragged on.
the short answer for me is C because you can game the GVW until you get bored and not get into busting axles and wearing wheel bearings like you can if you go over GAWR. You should be able to pull the same trailer a hemi can on the axle ratings with the GVW derated because of the ecodiesel and slightly heavier engine. So manage the engine and pull up to probably 8,000lbs seems like consensus on max weight. It seems like 8,000+ is too much from what I read for the little oil burner.
 

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sorry I dragged on.
the short answer for me is C because you can game the GVW until you get bored and not get into busting axles and wearing wheel bearings like you can if you go over GAWR. You should be able to pull the same trailer a hemi can on the axle ratings with the GVW derated because of the ecodiesel and slightly heavier engine. So manage the engine and pull up to probably 8,000lbs seems like consensus on max weight. It seems like 8,000+ is too much from what I read for the little oil burner.
I agree, I'm going with C. My Son-In-Law just bought a 17 ED, told him same that the truck he has with a hemi will pull like what a 10,000 lb rating? But the issue with this baby diesel is heat, keeping temps under control is the issue. Will be shopping for a new camper soon, set an upper limit on its empty weight, based on how much weight I have added to my camper, of 6,700 lbs. That still gives me enough head room once the WDH is properly setup.

As for my current tongue weight even with the fresh water tank full, which sits just in front of the leading axle and the kitchen is just behind the bedroom so most of the weight of the camper is in the front half but it has easy ride axles(spread axles) so most of the camper weight sits on the axles. purposely bought this camper as I was towing with a smaller vehicle, not going down that road again. Will take your advice on GAWR and adjust as needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
just to clarify, i made a confusing statement in there

quad cabs load up the front axle more than crew cabs because the (theoretically) the weight is farther forward on a shorter cab configuration all else equal. they don't put heavier springs up front on quad cabs and they don't put heavier springs in the rear on crew cabs.... so you could test this easily by taking the same weight and putting it inside each vehicle type after getting their curb weight. I'd argue the quad cab curb weight is greater percent forward as well (logically).

it's seems trivial to think about the cab configuration until the overhead on GVW disappears on the crew cab quickly and exponentially worse because it's further back. Although Ram doesn't seem to differential capability from cab configuration (because they've derated the thing OVERALL and gone completely generic on it), you can put more trailer on a quad cab than a crew cab, and we know that from the stripped down regular cab setups.

So, the short story here is, I'm working off tongue weight. The more tongue weight you can get with the proportional weight forward from WDH, the more trailer you can get until the driveline won't do it, because we'd be WAY over GVW to get over GAWR.

For me, I want to get some leeway on a setup, when I do get one, so that there's capacity in the payload. I'm interested to see how 12-13% tongue weight tows so that if I throw a couple hundred pounds in the bed or forward on the trailer it's still fine or possibly even better. Adding weight is easy lol. My best friend says all the time when we BS about how he had to move a bunch of stuff around in the camper because it was too far back or forward, or they had more stuff in the bed or no kayaks on the rack.

I.E. I don't want to be starting at 15% tongue weight and perfect on the F/R weight distribution, Vern illudes to this by suggesting to get weight forward as well plus the weight on the receiver matters right? If you've ever seen a class IV hitch bend, break welds, warp and do bad things it's a bit scary. On Jeep grand cherokees, you weld up a sub-frame to strengthen the hitch/body connections.

Will be shopping for a new camper soon, set an upper limit on its empty weight, based on how much weight I have added to my camper, of 6,700 lbs. That still gives me enough head room once the WDH is properly setup.
As others mention on these questions, I intend to get us into 7,500 max Gross Trailer Weight with a 6,000lb max dry weight. I've seen 26FT Jaycos and lance trailers that will do that, the lance trailers are quite a bit lower to the ground reducing frontal area and people seem to generally state they are equal in quality.
 

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Truck I'm running has air ride, wo with no springs I'm thinking equal "spring rate" front to rear and it is a quad cab with 5' 7" bed. Still thinking the best method is to scale out truck both empty and hitched up. For me the closest scale is a bit set in their ways. Won't let a person unhook on their property and can only way a complete truck, no partial weights to get front axle and rear axle. So I weigh the truck, go home get the camper weigh the rig then do the math. Two other nearby scales but they are at full size truck stops and barely acknowledge your presences. See if I can find a local small town elevator and let me play around on the scale get proper weights. To set the WDH use the wheel well method and a tape measure.
 

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I have 3.92 Axles and a Tradesman Quad Cab ED, which give me a higher GCWR, but doesn't change the GAWR. Four adults, probably 200 lbs in the bed and my fresh filled in my TT put my rear axle at 4400. I was able to move some stuff around in the trailer and forward in the truck bed plus adjusting the WDH and get it down to 4100.

I rarely travel with anything in the fresh tank and more than two adults, but for a couple trips I fill the fresh tank a couple miles before our dry camping and wanted to see what it weighed on the Cat Scales. Just two adults and empty fresh is 3800 on the rear axle and 2100 under the GCWR.

My big lesson I learned was cargo (passengers and stuff in the truck bed) are very important in the equation. I can be 2200 under GCWR and over on the GVWR/GAWR.
 

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4100 on the drive axle isn't hateful. What was your steer and TT axles on that setup?

Lol Setting your hitch before dropping the trailer jack can help get more transfer out of your hitch. Replacing your tailgate with a net or standing up your spare against the back of the cab instead of behind the drive axle also helps if you are concerned with getting under the max drive axle number or perhaps even more important at least with respects to stability and stopping power replacing the unloaded steer weight and getting that tongue weight in range. On tongue weight I shoot for 12% of gross trailer weight as seen by comparing truck axle weights unloaded to loaded with trailer. I can tell you this flat works if safety stability & stopping power is your main concerns.

I know a fella took a heavy and stupidly loaded enclosed car hauler across the county before deciding to weight it. 4,700 plus on the drive axle. Yea I wouldn't want to do that very fast or far but 10% or 4,300 wouldn't have me concerned. The axle Mfg builds in a good safety margin and then the auto Mfg builds in some more but I would still rather be safe than sorry. I have many times gotten 8k gross weight TTs to scale out well on tongue weight steer and drive weight and then handle and tow quite well. But to me that is the practical max for a TT/TH with a well equipped and set up half ton. Factory TBC (trailer brake controller) some axle to frame bags and tune with turbo brake will make your towing experience even better. Better tires will help also.
 
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