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Discussion Starter #1
I have been told by someone that measures this stuff that the Ram Eco-D OEM air-box essentially has no restriction what-so-ever. I was told they measured 800 mb at peak air usage.

I was also told by this same person that the Eco-D engine can have very wide swings in dyno graphs, with no changes at all. So that purported power gains from dyno runs might not be trusted, do to natural variation.

Truthfully I'm trying to justify springing for the AFE Momentun intake for the Grand Cherokee as soon as it is available but I don't want to spend $500 for no improvement in performance if this is the case.

So can the Engineers/ Sales staff at AFE comment on the above concerns? For the record I am pro AFE products and have used their products for years. But I also know they are producing a DEF back exhaust that does nothing at all for performance and I don't want to fall in to that trap, spending money for no reason at all.

Thanks!
 

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CAI is about the same as buying snake oil for keeping your joints and arthritis pain free. don't waste your time if you want it to actually do something. other than transferring wealth.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well, I have verifiable (dyno and acceleration tests) gains with other CAI on other vehicles. So they certainly work well on some platforms.
 

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We have a flow bench that tests the stock intake tract against the aFe Intake to measure flow numbers (graph below). At it's most simplistic level, an engine is an air pump. The more efficient you can make it to bring air in, combine with fuel and expel the more power possible. Name another company that publishes both flow rates as well as dyno graphs, we take what we do seriously, and go the extra mile in providing data. With almost every OE setup there are compromises for all kinds of things, especially emissions and cost. We have the freedom to utilize our technology to 3D scan the engine bay, design a new tube and housing enabling us to utilize a very large custom air filter, performance air filter media and outflow the factory setup in this application by 23%.

In addition to the added performance, the improved efficiency is also reported to us as better fuel mileage, although we're restricted in making those claims as it becomes an EPA thing, but it is a common note customers make to us.

Is installing an intake like adding 10lbs of boost? Absolutely not. But it provides solid gains in both horsepower and torque throughout the powerband.



 

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still not buying the 'gains'. there is still a restrictive MAF in place. i think mustangshawn did a great job of highlighting this in his breakdown of the OEM system.

also a question for AFE on the provided image - the dyno runs are taken on two different days, about 12 hours apart. hard to make out the fine print so apologize if i'm reading them wrong (old eyes). the "improved" chart looks like the ambient air temperature was about 73 - and run was done in the morning. the 'benchmark' run was done the night before and looks like air temperature was 89? i can't tell for sure... but by nature of 'cooler air' on the second run, wouldn't it be expected to have better numbers?

"Given constant pressure (which seems accurate), the temperature of the air is inversely proportional to the number of air molecules. So colder air means more molecules, and more air molecules means more energy released in each combustion cycle. A drop from 30 C to 0 C is roughly a 10% drop measured in Kelvin, which suggests 10% more energy for each combustion cycle --> 10% more horsepower!"

so agreed, in theory you can be bringing in more air and then running into the same bottleneck (MAF). To be clear, I'm not looking to pick an argument with a site sponsor and don't mean to say AFE is not a reputable company (i really want the intercooler kit from AFE - maybe you can tell me if its CARB compliant...). But doing reading well before the EcoD, time and time and time again CAI "gains" have been debunked - has nothing to do with the vendor or vehicle. Heck I even had one way back in 2000 on a BMW. it sounded loud.

anyway, this is one example of the "CAI debunked" discussion. I am providing it solely for the sake of helping the discussion. I realize this is in the vendor forum and understand if it gets moved/deleted.

Why aftermarket "Cold Air" kits don't work

i don't have an axe to grind. its possible i'm completely missing/overlooking and flat out not understanding what i'm reading. hopefully this is taken in the manner it is intended, to help get an informative discussion and give people like the OP the info he is after.
 

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What about filtration over stock filter? Just curious. Live in high desert, high pollen and high dust. Filter as well as OEM? Thanks.
The OE paper filter will have slightly better filtration, at the expense of airflow and efficiency. aFe intake also uses a much larger filter, which has more surface area and improves flow. There is also a pre-filter available for those who like to off-road or want extra protection about dust. In the world of aftermarket filters, our progressive layered filter does an excellent job. Here's an independent lab test done: ISSUU - aFe Power Air Filter Case Study by aFe Power



still not buying the 'gains'. there is still a restrictive MAF in place. i think mustangshawn did a great job of highlighting this in his breakdown of the OEM system.

also a question for AFE on the provided image - the dyno runs are taken on two different days, about 12 hours apart. hard to make out the fine print so apologize if i'm reading them wrong (old eyes). the "improved" chart looks like the ambient air temperature was about 73 - and run was done in the morning. the 'benchmark' run was done the night before and looks like air temperature was 89? i can't tell for sure... but by nature of 'cooler air' on the second run, wouldn't it be expected to have better numbers?

"Given constant pressure (which seems accurate), the temperature of the air is inversely proportional to the number of air molecules. So colder air means more molecules, and more air molecules means more energy released in each combustion cycle. A drop from 30 C to 0 C is roughly a 10% drop measured in Kelvin, which suggests 10% more energy for each combustion cycle --> 10% more horsepower!"

so agreed, in theory you can be bringing in more air and then running into the same bottleneck (MAF). To be clear, I'm not looking to pick an argument with a site sponsor and don't mean to say AFE is not a reputable company (i really want the intercooler kit from AFE - maybe you can tell me if its CARB compliant...). But doing reading well before the EcoD, time and time and time again CAI "gains" have been debunked - has nothing to do with the vendor or vehicle. Heck I even had one way back in 2000 on a BMW. it sounded loud.

anyway, this is one example of the "CAI debunked" discussion. I am providing it solely for the sake of helping the discussion. I realize this is in the vendor forum and understand if it gets moved/deleted.

Why aftermarket "Cold Air" kits don't work

i don't have an axe to grind. its possible i'm completely missing/overlooking and flat out not understanding what i'm reading. hopefully this is taken in the manner it is intended, to help get an informative discussion and give people like the OP the info he is after.
The MAF is designed to measure the volume of the air passing through it to allow for the ECU to provide appropriate fuel. By making the intake tract more efficient, the engine is able to breathe easier if you will, and more power and better fuel economy occurs.

As far as the dyno particulars, it was done the following day, almost identical time, and the temp was 75 versus 73. Also, it's not just recording all of that information to be displayed on the sheet, the dynamometer software is accounting for those variables, and the run charts are provided in what's callled "SAE" correction, which will adjust values to compensate for variables like temperature and things to better give an "apples to apples" comparison. Even if it had been 15-20 degrees different, the software will calculate against that. But in this case the environmental variables are almost identical.

As far as random articles on the internet claiming no intakes ever work, I wouldn't know where to begin in that conversation. Why would any intake company be around still if that were even remotely the case. lol
 

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thank you for the reply. to be fair, i was refering to the chart that is listed on your product webpage: http://afepower.com/catalog/54-32572/graphs/54-32572G1600.jpg which clearly shows two different days and air temps :)

As to why any intake company would be around, there are still far more people who will buy something w/out questioning than there are people who want to see product "gains" verified by someone other than the person asking for $.

that said, i don't want to get into an argument with a site supporting vendor. thank you for providing the information you shared and continuing to support the forum.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Those guys that don't think that CAI's don't ever work need to lay off what ever they are smoking. The gains can be immediate and very notable on some platforms and frankly the best bang for the buck you can get. I did a tune, an intake, and an exhaust on a 3.8 Hyundai a few years back dynoing each change individually and they all worked great together (essentially 40-50 hp and torque everywhere on a not very powerful engine) but the airbox alone made the largest improvement. I suspect just getting rid of the accordion intake tube accounts for a fair bit better airflow to the engine. The hp numbers alone are not the entire story. The extra immediacy and responsiveness was huge from those changes. It definitely works and works well on some engines. That particular engine also gained a solid 4-5 mpg under all conditions. That extra mpg was a result of the tune primarily. Airboxes don't really improve mpg for the simple fact that any time you are measuring mpg your engines air intake needs are actually very low and even the worst OEM airbox is not going to have any restriction in that situation.

The MAF might be a restriction, but I don't know yet if the restriction by the OEM intake and element might be a greater restriction before even getting there. So there might be gains to be had.

If I could truly gain 10hp/ 20 tq from a well sealed (COLD) dry aftermarket air intake for around $400 I'd consider that a fair bargain. Especially considering all of the well documented problems with the OEM Grand Cherokee air filter element. But I want to know that it is truly a gain that can be measured and not just a dyno quirk.
 
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