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I am running Red Line - but as part of a group where you have access to some tribologists - I’ve learned that it isn’t ideal. It’s more than sufficient for the application I believe - I will have a sample tested shortly (it’s in the mail) to confirm that. And so, as they sponsor a few friends of mine in their endeavors, I make it a habit to patronize their product.
 

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Discussion Starter #202
I am running Red Line - but as part of a group where you have access to some tribologists - I’ve learned that it isn’t ideal. It’s more than sufficient for the application I believe - I will have a sample tested shortly (it’s in the mail) to confirm that. And so, as they sponsor a few friends of mine in their endeavors, I make it a habit to patronize their product.
I wish you had some data on the Amsoil.

By the way, I purchased my 2020 Ram yesterday. Instead of going to Utah to pick it up, I'm having it delivered. I hope to have it by the end of next week.
 

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I wish you had some data on the Amsoil.

By the way, I purchased my 2020 Ram yesterday. Instead of going to Utah to pick it up, I'm having it delivered. I hope to have it by the end of next week.
I can say confidently that if the Red Line is good, the AMSOIL will be better!
 

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Discussion Starter #204
I can say confidently that if the Red Line is good, the AMSOIL will be better!
Hopefully I will have some data to post. I'll plan to change my factory oil at 3,000 miles. Then I will take an oil sample at 6,000 miles with the Amsoil. I'm planning to use oil analyzers to do my testing.
 

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Updated on 7/15/2020

Recommendation: Do NOT rely solely on this list. Always double check to make sure the following oils are current in meeting factory specifications.

The new 3rd gen (2020+) EcoDiesel has different specs than the 2nd generation (2014 - 2019) engine. The following oils have been known to meet the new MS-12991 and API SN Certification/Standard/Approval. I put them in order based on what I think are more 'commonly known', not based on preference or performance.

Mopar 68231020AA 5W-40
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40
Valvoline European Vehicle 5W-40
Quaker State Ultimate Durability EURO 5W-40
Havoline ProDS 5W-40
Amsoil European Car Formula 5W-40 Classic ESP Synthetic (EFM)
Redline Full Synthetic 5W-40
Motul 8100 X-clean 5W-40
Liqui Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
TRIAX Euro LX 5W-40
TRIAX Euro Ultra VX 5W-40
Ravenol VST 5W-40
Total Quartz 9000 5W-40
ELF Evolution 900 SXR 5W-40
ELF Evolution 900 FT 5W-40
AMALIE Elixir Full Synthetic Euro 5W-40
Millers Oil Trident Fully Synthetic 5W-40
Millers Oils XF LONGLIFE 5W-40
MPT Thirty-K True Synthetic High Performance 5W-40
CAM2 Blue Blood Elite Euro 5W-40
FUCHS TITAN Supersyn SAE 5W-40
REPSOL ELITE COSMOS HIGH PERFORMANCE 5W-40

I will update this thread as new approved oils are added.
 

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What is the sulfated ash content number set for the Ms-12991?
Do you have any idea what the sulfated ash content is in the Mopar or the Pennzoil Platinum European since they are the top two?
Thanks
Mike
 

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What is the sulfated ash content number set for the Ms-12991?
Do you have any idea what the sulfated ash content is in the Mopar or the Pennzoil Platinum European since they are the top two?
Thanks
Mike
900-1100 PPM, or 0.9-1.1%, from what Valvoline told me.
That falls in line with the Gen 2 T6, which is 1%. So I’m not sure what specifically is the reason they opted for the other spec, but something must be different!
 

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Is the Amsoil website just not updated yet to show it meets MS-12991? I couldn’t find it listed there. I emailed them, using their online form yesterday but have not heard back from them yet.
 

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Update on the Amsoil ratings question:

biodiesel & OhioTech,

I hadn't received an answer via email from Amsoil, so called them just now. Ryan there took my call. I explained that on this forum it was said that the 5W-40 European Car Formula ESP Synthetic (EFM) had recently attained the MS-12991 rating, and that I couldn’t find that stated on their website.

Ryan explained that this oil exceeded the MS-12991 specified sulfur or phosphorus (he didn’t recall which one) by 0.03%, and for that reason, they will not be listing MS-12991 on the bottle.

Do either of you have different information on this?

Thanks,
Bill
 

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Mostly, I can tell you it’s irrelevant.
Oil is the source of ash that the DPF cannot burn out. That oil usually comes from ring bypass, and vapor pulled through the intake.

Pennzoil has a volatility upwards of 14%. In effect, it’s easily dispersed into intake air, and volatility is a great indicator of how much will be burned past the rings.

AMSOIL is around 9%, and tends to burn about 76% less.... so, .03% too much SAPS, and 76% less use = about 75.97% less ash in the DPF!

If you want my thoughts on the matter.

Update on the Amsoil ratings question:

biodiesel & OhioTech,

I hadn't received an answer via email from Amsoil, so called them just now. Ryan there took my call. I explained that on this forum it was said that the 5W-40 European Car Formula ESP Synthetic (EFM) had recently attained the MS-12991 rating, and that I couldn’t find that stated on their website.

Ryan explained that this oil exceeded the MS-12991 specified sulfur or phosphorus (he didn’t recall which one) by 0.03%, and for that reason, they will not be listing MS-12991 on the bottle.

Do either of you have different information on this?

Thanks,
Bill
 

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Mostly, I can tell you it’s irrelevant.
Oil is the source of ash that the DPF cannot burn out. That oil usually comes from ring bypass, and vapor pulled through the intake.

Pennzoil has a volatility upwards of 14%. In effect, it’s easily dispersed into intake air, and volatility is a great indicator of how much will be burned past the rings.

AMSOIL is around 9%, and tends to burn about 76% less.... so, .03% too much SAPS, and 76% less use = about 75.97% less ash in the DPF!

If you want my thoughts on the matter.
Yes, thank you very much for your thoughts on this. I’m generally not overly worried about warranty complications. But in this case, what are your thoughts about how large a concern one should have about using a high quality oil, like this Amsoil offering, if they don’t obtain the MS rating?

I think I read where biodiesel reported having received notice that the MS spec was going to be part of Amsoil specs. But that was a couple months or more ago. Did Amsoil change their mind about a slight reformulation to meet this spec? COVID is affecting lots of peoples plans, etc.

Thinking about the percentages, I would think a calculation would compare the percentage of the SAPS spec limit that the .03% exceeds it by. I don’t know what the spec limit is, but as an example, if the spec limit was .3%, then exceeding that by .03%, would be an increase of 10%. Then compare that increase against the difference in volatility. Does that make sense? I generally have a good sense of numbers but am no oil expert!

Regardless, I understand you to be pointing out that the lesser Pennzoil may meet the MS spec, but because it has higher volatility, it will deposit more ash in the DPF than the Amsoil, even though the Amsoil has a bit more SAPS. Do I have that right?

Do you have a feel for how the approved Valvoline offering stacks up regarding volatility and quality in general? I’d like to land on an oil for my 2020 Wrangler 3.0 that I can have confidence in, that I can find or have delivered to me conveniently. The Amsoil program looks good in that regard. It’s only the lack of spec that has me concerned.

I’ve been using the Rotella T6 in a 2014 Ram gen2 Ecodiesel, changing around 8K miles. But read discussions here, about that oil not having the longevity of some others. So far been trouble free but only have about 60K at this point.
 

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Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40
Red Line Oil 5w40

Both specifically list MS-12991 in their literature.

Mobil and Castrol both have oils that will exceed the requirements. Neither will list them because it’s basically impossible to get approval.

Dear customer,

We kindly inform you that the FIAT Chrysler Automobiles group has a strong commercial agreement with one of our main competitors, making it impossible for any other lubricant manufacturer/marketer to obtain the formal approval of most Fiat and Chrysler specifications (including the MS-12991). For this reason, we avoid including Fiat and Chrysler specifications in our product literature. Nevertheless, we are confident that our * is suitable for use in your vehicle.

Should you require any further assistance, please, do not hesitate in contacting with us again.

That was a typical letter from many oil manufacturers that I received.

The window, IIRC, from what Mobil shared was 900-1100 ppm, so if it fails by .03%, it’s 1130..... Basically insignificant.

There’s nothing wrong with T6 - but, if you are towing, in a lot of hills - the engine will get too hot for that oil to effectively protect a stock setup.

T6 starts to break down at 302 - sump temps of 245 can easily see the bearings exceed that under high RPM/heavy load conditions - if your oil reports are good, stick with T6! If not, I really like AMSOIL Signature Diesel 5w40! It’s composition is similar to the best race oils on the market, with the best add packs available for street use! It’s really good oil!

Incidentally, T6 is volatile, around 12-13% IIRC. Any 5w40 petroleum based oil is going to be! But it’s far better than the Euro 5w40. That stuff was north of 14%!

As it was explained to me by a tribologist who used to work for Driven race oils, that directly affects ring seal, and oil use past the rings! It’s far more critical to reduction of ash, than SAPS content!

I posted my report from my Red Line Oil in my Gen 3 Truck - (I also have a Wrangler, but it’s not due for awhile!) If you look at VOAs for the oil, it’s starting Viscosity is 14.7 cSt - mine rested 14.7 cSt @ 10K miles. It’s volatility is 6%. It is NOT as well formulated as the AMSOIL. From a technical standpoint, it has too much POE! But, at 10K intervals, it will be fine!


Do you have a feel for how the approved Valvoline offering stacks up regarding volatility and quality in general? I’d like to land on an oil for my 2020 Wrangler 3.0 that I can have confidence in, that I can find or have delivered to me conveniently. The Amsoil program looks good in that regard. It’s only the lack of spec that has me concerned.

I’ve been using the Rotella T6 in a 2014 Ram gen2 Ecodiesel
 

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Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40
Red Line Oil 5w40

Both specifically list MS-12991 in their literature.

Mobil and Castrol both have oils that will exceed the requirements. Neither will list them because it’s basically impossible to get approval.

Dear customer,

We kindly inform you that the FIAT Chrysler Automobiles group has a strong commercial agreement with one of our main competitors, making it impossible for any other lubricant manufacturer/marketer to obtain the formal approval of most Fiat and Chrysler specifications (including the MS-12991). For this reason, we avoid including Fiat and Chrysler specifications in our product literature. Nevertheless, we are confident that our * is suitable for use in your vehicle.

Should you require any further assistance, please, do not hesitate in contacting with us again.

That was a typical letter from many oil manufacturers that I received.

The window, IIRC, from what Mobil shared was 900-1100 ppm, so if it fails by .03%, it’s 1130..... Basically insignificant.

There’s nothing wrong with T6 - but, if you are towing, in a lot of hills - the engine will get too hot for that oil to effectively protect a stock setup.

T6 starts to break down at 302 - sump temps of 245 can easily see the bearings exceed that under high RPM/heavy load conditions - if your oil reports are good, stick with T6! If not, I really like AMSOIL Signature Diesel 5w40! It’s composition is similar to the best race oils on the market, with the best add packs available for street use! It’s really good oil!

Incidentally, T6 is volatile, around 12-13% IIRC. Any 5w40 petroleum based oil is going to be! But it’s far better than the Euro 5w40. That stuff was north of 14%!

As it was explained to me by a tribologist who used to work for Driven race oils, that directly affects ring seal, and oil use past the rings! It’s far more critical to reduction of ash, than SAPS content!

I posted my report from my Red Line Oil in my Gen 3 Truck - (I also have a Wrangler, but it’s not due for awhile!) If you look at VOAs for the oil, it’s starting Viscosity is 14.7 cSt - mine rested 14.7 cSt @ 10K miles. It’s volatility is 6%. It is NOT as well formulated as the AMSOIL. From a technical standpoint, it has too much POE! But, at 10K intervals, it will be fine!
you like the Amsoil signature diesel better the their euro car formula?
 

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I guess I don't understand why a guy would be hellbent on using a product like Amsoil, etc. that costs a LOT more money, doesn't have the FCA MS printed in documentation, and is harder to find when we've already seen oil analysis proof that lower cost oils like Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc. that are easy to find, much less expensive, and do have the proper spec on the bottle are still showing great TBN numbers at the end of a standard 8,000 mile change interval.

Remember, under no circumstances should you ever exceed 10,000 miles on an oil cycle. And I'd be willing to bet money that at <8,000 miles the "elite" oils are doing nothing for your engine that the off-the-shelf oils aren't doing.
 

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In some cases, that is true - it will depend on how you use your truck!

Me personally - it’s about $9/qt for the Euro Pennzoil - it’s also only $9/qt for the AMSOIL Euro....How much are you saving? And long term, if you plan to keep the truck, the added expense in DPF replacement and fuel economy loss as the ash accumulated in your DPF means I’ll spend less $$.

Once it is out of warranty, I can easily run my oil 20K or more, and still test good - and at $12.50/quart, to break even, you’ll need to be at under $6/qt....

Then there is the peace of mind factor - my oil isn’t going to have issues with 300+ deg oil temps (the Gen3 definitely seems to run cooler, but you get the idea!)

And TBN isn’t the whole story - so, I see T6 results posted often - TBN is 3-4 @ 10K - still good, but that oil starts around 11. It also often is 12.7-13.x on the cSt - while I’m still holding the 14.7 mine started at... and while my TBN started at 7, it’s still at 5.1!

Motul, which is probably superior to what I run, is $38/5qts....

Less than $8/qt.... Amazon will have it to your door in 2 days, free!

I’m not advocating you go buy $22/qt Millers Oil - I’m advocating you should test, and if the oil is solid for your use, use it!

But I pulled a 27’ Enclosed with my Gen2 constantly, loaded with a racecar, and everything else we hauled to the track.... I had no concerns running 10K on my changes, and never experienced any issues - where many have had engines go boom! I have never seen anyone with one of these blown that was using a high end “boutique” oil.... seems they were using T6, or Delo, or some other oil designed to meet the “minimum” requirements for the cheapest cost to maximize profit!


I guess I don't understand why a guy would be hellbent on using a product like Amsoil, etc. that costs a LOT more money, doesn't have the FCA MS printed in documentation, and is harder to find when we've already seen oil analysis proof that lower cost oils like Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc. that are easy to find, much less expensive, and do have the proper spec on the bottle are still showing great TBN numbers at the end of a standard 8,000 mile change interval.

Remember, under no circumstances should you ever exceed 10,000 miles on an oil cycle. And I'd be willing to bet money that at <8,000 miles the "elite" oils are doing nothing for your engine that the off-the-shelf oils aren't doing.
 

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So, not everyone is an enthusiast - and few know what their oil consists of.

There are some Group II (Coventional) Oils on the shelf, in bottles that say synthetic.
And, there are several types of actual synthetics, and they are very different.

Most race oils are comprising about 10-15% POE (group V)to deal with high temps, about 25% PAO (group IV), and the majority is Group III+. This means they have little to no VII additives (Viscosity Index Improvers).

This is why Red Line Oil starts at 14.7, and ends at 14.7 - it’s shear stable.

The best VIIs will lose 25-50% of their capability over a service interval.

A shelf oil, like Pennzoil, may have some III+ base, some III base, and some II. It’s likely to be loaded with VIIs, to get that 5 weight oil to act as a 40, which is why it often reads closer to a 5w30 after its run! Worse, it may be thinner than that before oxidation sets in, and it starts thickening!

Your Extended Interval oils like M1 15K or Annual, will often have a couple percentage points of Group V, a decent slug of Group IV, and a majority III/III+ with less VIIs - which is why it will handle longer drains. It also uses hard debased solvents more, and higher quality additives that will last that time.

So, your boutique oils, like AMSOIL spare little expense - it’s base formula is very similar to a race oil. It’s additive pack is what the additive suppliers have for top tier. Meaning the best of the best. Longest lasting, strongest, best formulation that the suppliers can come up with. These are the same suppliers that the big guys use, and rely on for development of additive packages, but their concern isn’t making it the best it can be. It’s making it meet the minimum necessary to pass an API SN year as cheaply as possible, using the least expensive base oil option they can get away with.

Your smaller companies usually do Base Oil testing in environments that are extreme, like a NASCAR engine. 300 degree sump temps are normal. 330 is acceptable! They then take a formulation like that, and add the best package that the additives supplier has - which is why it’s not unusual to see a 30-40K run on AMSOIL still test okay to use.

So, while I have run M1 for many years, in relatively tame applications, with relatively short intervals - and it does very well - when I can get a better option, for roughly the same cost, like AMSOIL, and not worry about changing a Hemi every 5K to keep from wiping a Lifter - why wouldn’t I?

Same for my Gen 2 when I had it - started on Red Line 5w30 Euro - when Chrysler changed the spec, I went to signature Series AMSOIL 5w40 Diesel. Cheap insurance. Run 10K intervals, and no worries when the oil temps are in the 260+ ranges!
 

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Been following this thread for a while; great contributions guys.

Just curious, the Amsoil product label "EFM", 5w40 European Car Forumula Classic ESP (Emissions System Protection) keeps being referenced. It appears that it was recently quoted the only issue for the lack of the special MS classification is the .03% over on the SAP. Which Ohiotech did a great job explaining of SAP vs volatility etc.

What about the Amsoil "AFL" which is the Improved ESP. Per their site or bulletin, this is a mid SAPs oil. While the "EFM" is a full SAPs oil. Curious why the AFL doesn't just fall in to qualifying for the new MS spec.

.

OhioTech, it seems like you're confident Motul is as competent as Amsoil. I have never really read up on anything about Motul; I just know they were always a premium name for race bike products. In contrast, Amsoil's site usually does a good job of posting test data for comparisons.

Do you have any experience with Motul or people who does OA on their products? If it meets the spec and someone wants the best but also wants to be safe for warranty/oil spec, then it sounds like the right choice. I just have little knowledge of the Motul reputation, compared to Amsoil.

As far as the price discussion, like you said, the Amsoil and Motul both can be had for $7-8 a qt. Even if you're in the $4/qt range for off the shelf stuff, at 9 qts to change the oil, if someone is so worried about an extra $27 per oil change every 8k miles, then i feel bad for them. If you plan to keep a truck for the long haul, you invest in your purchase. Just my thoughts though.
 
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