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The weight/viscosity of oil you run is specific to things like bearing clearance, crank/rod/main material composition, and operating temperature, etc. Finding the "proper" oil for your application is a combination of all of that and more.
I particularly found interesting his assertion of the change on the Gen2 from 5w30 to 5w40, in specific, because the reasoning provided is illogical.
It stated in the reasoning letter that they wished to increase the film strength to alleviate bearing failures - by hydrodynamics has proven that you have increased load capacity with thinner oil and tighter clearances - which means the reasoning is counter-intuitive to what will happen.
I heard once, in a class on the engine, that the scuttle-butt behind that, was that the thicker oil would act as a crankshaft damper, reducing the harmonics induced under high load, low RPM operation, due to an increase in the windage cloud! Supposedly, the crankshaft was hitting a resonant frequency that was causing enough deflection to hit the bearings....

But I doubt he understands enough about hydrodynamics to understand what was just stated! Like people assuming Red Line 70 weight Top Fuel oil is 70 weight, cause it’s better ... the fuel dilution ensures it’s 20 weight, or thinner, when the engine is at it’s highest load peaks.... that’s the ONLY reason it’s formulated that thick.
 

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I particularly found interesting his assertion of the change on the Gen2 from 5w30 to 5w40, in specific, because the reasoning provided is illogical.
It stated in the reasoning letter that they wished to increase the film strength to alleviate bearing failures - by hydrodynamics has proven that you have increased load capacity with thinner oil and tighter clearances - which means the reasoning is counter-intuitive to what will happen.
I heard once, in a class on the engine, that the scuttle-butt behind that, was that the thicker oil would act as a crankshaft damper, reducing the harmonics induced under high load, low RPM operation, due to an increase in the windage cloud! Supposedly, the crankshaft was hitting a resonant frequency that was causing enough deflection to hit the bearings....

But I doubt he understands enough about hydrodynamics to understand what was just stated! Like people assuming Red Line 70 weight Top Fuel oil is 70 weight, cause it’s better ... the fuel dilution ensures it’s 20 weight, or thinner, when the engine is at it’s highest load peaks.... that’s the ONLY reason it’s formulated that thick.
You hit it on the head my friend.

Not that I knew all of this stuff myself in the past, and i have a hell of a lot to still learn, and i forget it in 3-4 months if i'm not consistently talking about; BUT this thread and the topics you're covering is to allow people to educate themselves, like you stated. And that's the difference in the average guy, and the dude who wants to understand what companies/race teams are thinking when they make these changes.

The good ol' water cooler talk, and forum responses of "i've always ran mobil1 in my cobra mustang and it never had a problem" just isn't good enough for some of us.

Here's a cool read on oil i found a few years back when I started diving more in to engine building for anyone interested: Racing Oil 101 – Driven Racing Oil I imagine anyone who's actually involved/interested in this thread will appreciate it and probably learn more also
 

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Yet I have never blown up an engine. Funny how you want to say I know nothing about oil yet then you go on to try and justify 30 weight oil when FCA has changed to 40 weight oil. The first number does not change the oils weight, but I am talking a bunch of Bob is the oil guy people and that place is a total joke.
 

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Yet I have never blown up an engine. Funny how you want to say I know nothing about oil yet then you go on to try and justify 30 weight oil when FCA has changed to 40 weight oil. The first number does not change the oils weight, but I am talking a bunch of Bob is the oil guy people and that place is a total joke.
The first number is an indication of cold flow. It’s 5W for Winter - cold flow, and pour point, are NOT the same!

Typically, I the Winter weight is a solid indicator of minimum pour point, but different formulations of oil negate that. Red Line Oil is heavy in POE (Group V, Polyol Ester if you need explaining.) As much as 40%. Which is why the 15w40 will flow in very cold temps. But the Viscosity Index is in the 150s - and it’s HTHS is significantly higher than the 5w40 - the oil is noticeably thicker, based on those numbers. It means it will maintain a tad more oil pressure, but also that scraping it off the walls may be an issue for the rings, as these engines aren’t designed for that kind of HTHS. It also means, that although it may pour at very cold temperatures, it will do so very slowly compared with the thinner 5w40 which has a much higher Viscosity Index (Almost 180)

I have blown up a Couple of engines - none due to oil.... typically, it won’t blow up from incorrect oil - it will simply have excessive wear!
My specific failures can easily be traced to piston speed and rapid unloading at the time of the failure, resulting in stretching of the rod bolt, and flattening of the bearing on that journal...

But keep thinking that you know something. I talk regularly with a couple of Tribologists, one of whom used to develop oils for Driven....

I’ve spent a decent amount of time asking some of the most knowledgeable people in the world questions about the oil I use to help educate myself.

I run Red Line knowing it’s not as good as some others, and WHY that is the case!
David support a friend of mine who recently ran 5.50 on 2 wheels, so I choose to support David!

Keep showing your ignorance...I’ll continue to provide accurate and factual information...
 

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Yet I have never blown up an engine. Funny how you want to say I know nothing about oil yet then you go on to try and justify 30 weight oil when FCA has changed to 40 weight oil. The first number does not change the oils weight, but I am talking a bunch of Bob is the oil guy people and that place is a total joke.
quote where 30 weight oil was justified?

OhioTech gave the reason why FCA reasoned for change from 30w to 40w. And then it was discussed of reasons why they may have made that change. He made a small comment on viscosity and the oil wedge and film characteristics in general also.

Like mentioned; oil dilution can have a significant effect on viscosity; not to mention that numerous states have a minimum biodiesel content in their pump diesel which adds yet another variable to how the fuel behaves in the crankcase. These are all technical factors which have been brought up that need to be considered when finding the "best" oil for the application.

And that's what the discussions are about, factual technical information and theory related to that research done. Which is multi factorial or quite complex. You lose me each time you comment...
 

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I always get a kick out of oil threads with all the people saying you better run spec so and so manufacture has or else. The fact is oil related failures are ultra rare, normally if you have an oil failure it is because the oil was either not changed in a timely manner or someone did not check the oil and let if get to low or they over filled the crankcase and the oil foamed because the crankshaft was spinning in it.

As for grades that is the other thing people say you better run this grade or else. First off I think FCA put that one to rest with the ecodeisel when they switched from a 30 weight oil to a 40 weight oil, but before that people would tell you you better not run a 40 weight or else, well come to find out the 30 weight was to light of an oil all along.

Then we have the deal with multi weight oils 5w-40, 10w-40, 15w-40 and so on, again people will tell you that you better run the 5w-40 or else. All those oils listed are a 40 weight oil all of them, the only difference in them is the first number which is not the weight of the oil, the weight of the oil is always going to be 40 weight. The first number 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w and on is for "winter" in other words the 40 weight oil will pour like a 5w oil or a 15w oil when the oil is cold.
I don't think anyone has questioned the fact that there may be oils on the market that don't meet FCA spec but are still healthier for the engine. The issue is warranty coverage. It doesn't really matter how good an oil is or isn't....fact is people have had warranty coverage denied on engine repairs based SOLELY upon whether or not they were using an oil that meets spec. On an engine that costs $5,000 up front to purchase and many times more than that to replace, it's not worth the risk of moving away from FCA spec while under warranty.
A post brought up diesel fuel additives, there are a handful of good additives but for me I run Power Service Diesel Kleen, it not only adds lubricant to the diesel fuel that will help lubrication for the fuel pump and injectors but it also will clean the injectors.

The best thing about Diesel Kleen is you can buy it almost anywhere and to top it off Cummins Inc. endorses Diesel Kleen and Cummins knows more about Diesel engines than all of us combined on this forum.
Granted, he was primarily testing winter performance, but Project Farm tested all the additive brands on the market not long ago and Power Service was garbage. I think it ended up being the worst performer of the bunch. Because of his video, I only buy Hot Shots brand additive now.
 

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To weigh in on the discussion of the 5w30 vs 5w40 on the Gen2, slightly -

The Euro L that wa required, was not an “energy conserving” oil. This is because it had an almost abnormally high HTHS - 3.7+
(We know it’s actually higher than 3.8 because of one of the specifications it meets!)

T6, wasn’t a huge gamble in terms of ring compatibility, as it’s somewhere in the 4.0-4.2 neighborhood.

Meaning that you may have a slight bit more bypass, but nothing too significant - not like going to a 4.7 HTHS, which is higher than many 50 weight oils!

Again, the film strength argument put forth to the EPA as the reason for the change, is counterintuitive to the desired result. The Euro L was a very solid oil. It had a relatively low volatility, low SAPS, and a high VI with minimal VIIs.

I believe the response the instructor received from engineering when he asked.

I always advise people to run what they are comfortable with. IF you are concerned with warranty, and having an oil specified by Chrysler to use, MaxPro it is! I still recommend you sample it, and adjust your service accordingly!

But at the end of the day, Having an oil compatible for the application is easily determined by the oil manufacturer listing of the Engine manufacturers specifications...

Red Line 5w40 lists MS-12991 on their documentation. It does not list the previous MS-10902. However, AMSOIL Signature Series does!

I struggle with WHY someone would want to use a 15W anything... with the point of synthetic being to have less thickening when cold, I simply cannot fathom an advantage to 15w40 over a proper 5w40 in any of the true synthetic oils on the market. (This is not a discussion of Wal-Mart available shelf oils, ehich may not be synthetic regardless of the labeling.)
 

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And because I am a bit of an a**:

Red Line Oil 5w40 - Typical Properties

ACEA Service ClassA3 B3/B4
API Service ClassSN/SM/SL/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil)5W40
Vis @ 100°C, CSt15.6
Vis @ 40°C, CSt97
Viscosity Index174
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C[email protected]
Pour Point, °C-45
Pour Point, °F-49
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), %6
HTHS Vis, CP @150°C, ASTM D4741 4.4

Red Line Oil 15w40 - Typical Properties


ACEA Service ClassA3/B4/E5/E7/E9
API Service ClassSN/SM/CF/CJ-4/CI-4
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil)15W40
Vis @ 100°C, CSt14.5
Vis @ 40°C, CSt97
Viscosity Index155
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C[email protected]
Pour Point, °C-45
Pour Point, °F-49
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), %6
HTHS Vis, CP @150°C, ASTM D4741 4.7

At 212F (operating temp) - The 5w40 is 7.5% thicker than the 15w40.
At 104F - both oils are the same thickness.

The 15w40 is 65 Poise at -4F
The 5w40 is 58 Poise at -22F

Basically, it’s 12% Thinner when measure an additional 18 degrees colder!

This is very clearly shown by the Viscosity Index - 174 vs 155!
What’s even more telling, is that the 5w40 has less friction (HTHS is 4.4 vs 4.7) in spite of it being thicker at operating temperature!

The actual additive manufacturers, like Lubrizol have excellent reference charts on their site for various specifications, areas that they spec, etc.

API licensed C series oils (Diesel) have requirements for 2/8 areas - one of them is “piston scuffing” which is specific to highway diesels which use steel pistons!

API licensed S series oils (Gas) have requirements for 3/8 areas.

ACEA oils usually specify 4 areas.

The MB 229.5 spec literally has the most stringent requirements for 6/8 areas, and tough requirements for a 7th. It ignores piston scuffing as the engines that spec it use Aluminum pistons.

The 5w40 meets that requirement. The FCA MS.12991 is a stripped down MB229.5.

If I was still rocking a Gen2, AMSOIL Signature Diesel 5w40...

The Gen3 is back to a Euro spec oil, and it’s far superior in terms of requirements!
 

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Good stuff. Thanks for posting this Ohio. Has anyone ever used the LiquiMoly approved oil? For some reason it has gotten my attention for upcoming oil change. Thanks.
 

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Good stuff. Thanks for posting this Ohio. Has anyone ever used the LiquiMoly approved oil? For some reason it has gotten my attention for upcoming oil change. Thanks.
It should be a very solid oil! My concern is it may not have much (if any) Ester in it, so if you do much towing, or live in a hot environment, it may not be the choice for you. It’s significantly better than most oils however!
 

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I do live in a hot environment (West Texas), and do not tow very often. When I do it is either a Polaris Ranger or small travel trailer to the deer lease (4500lbs). If you don't mind, what oil would you run in this situation? Thanks again for the help.
 

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OhioTech would lose his mind if he shadowed my father for a week. :D:cool: He's been a master mechanic for 45 years and he uses 15W40 in almost everything he services/repairs! Some of the units he does planned maintenance on have been in service for over 20 years now that I know of.
 

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I do live in a hot environment (West Texas), and do not tow very often. When I do it is either a Polaris Ranger or small travel trailer to the deer lease (4500lbs). If you don't mind, what oil would you run in this situation? Thanks again for the help.
The AMSOIL or Motul, and when Rhett updates, the Lubrication Engineers option should be in that category

Edit: There are a couple more on the list, but difficulty in terms of availability or price lead me not to single them quickly. Like Miller’s, which is very expensive!
 

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OhioTech would lose his mind if he shadowed my father for a week. :D:cool: He's been a master mechanic for 45 years and he uses 15W40 in almost everything he services/repairs! Some of the units he does planned maintenance on have been in service for over 20 years now that I know of.
An analog Motorola box phone still makes phone calls, but I like my iPhone11. It seems to do a better job!
 

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I do live in a hot environment (West Texas), and do not tow very often. When I do it is either a Polaris Ranger or small travel trailer to the deer lease (4500lbs). If you don't mind, what oil would you run in this situation? Thanks again for the help.
BTW - I don’t want to discourage you from Liqui-Moly - they make a great oil! These engines simply are amongst the hottest running I’ve ever seen outside of racing, in terms of oil temperatures. I’m not certain the Gen3 gets as hot as the Gen2 did either. But I know the Gen2 can see 265+ sump temps - and that’s Group V POE oil territory, in terms of bearing temps, in order to cope with it!

My opinion, and ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

If this was a normal automobile, where oil temps generally never exceed 230, that’s literally one of the finest oils in the world.

I think Ravenol should be a great oil, but not necessarily a good choice for this engine. It’s a high PAO/Group III+, fine quality oil. Just not enough POE to cope with towing temps regularly. Liqui-Moly falls into that classification.

Red Line Oil is what I use. I’ve made no claims that it’s superior. It’s technically not as good at forming a proper protective film because the POE content is too high - but it will handle extreme temps well!

It’s why when people ask, I kindly try and direct them to reasonably priced options that should exceed any and all requirements this engine has!
 

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Discussion Starter #257
It’s why when people ask, I kindly try and direct them to reasonably priced options that should exceed any and all requirements this engine has!
This is why taking oil samples is critical. We just don't know until we've seen some data. People like Vern have logged (or nearly logged) 400,000 miles on one engine. Vern is also tuned, so that makes a difference as well.

I'll be taking lots of oil samples on the gen. III engine. I'm still running Rotella in my 2015 with 5,000 mile interval changes.
 

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we should start a gen3 oil anaylsis thread also when people start getting results.

bio, are you still planning on going with the amsoil?

what are the current temps people are seeing when towing? I have 1000 miles on my truck. Coolant temps are consistently 205-210 and Oil temps 210-225. I towed 4500# with it so far and the oil temp stay at 224-225* on a 85* day; this was mostly flat terrain though and some stop/go traffic.
 

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we should start a gen3 oil anaylsis thread also when people start getting results.

bio, are you still planning on going with the amsoil?

what are the current temps people are seeing when towing? I have 1000 miles on my truck. Coolant temps are consistently 205-210 and Oil temps 210-225. I towed 4500# with it so far and the oil temp stay at 224-225* on a 85* day; this was mostly flat terrain though and some stop/go traffic.
I saw 239 coming up Fancy Gap on a cold day!
 
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