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I saw 239 coming up Fancy Gap on a cold day!
Yea, that's not a bad temp at all.

From the info i've gathered over the years, it's beneficial for oil temps to be at least 220-230* regularly to burn off moisture and excess contaminates. And the 240-280* range is acceptable and the modern synthetic oils are capable of handling this.

What was considered high in Gen2s and I wonder what people are seeing with Gen3 towing 8-9K# in stock form..
Either way, that 40w oil should be just fine on viscosity reading at those higher temps.

Are there legitimate service manuals produced/available by FCA for these engine which show bearing clearances etc?
 

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Since asked
what was the mileage on this sample? you check the stock oil?

I still haven't decided between amsoil or motul but plan to drain the factory oil out shortly, send that used oil for OA along with a fresh sample of new X product I decide to use.

Have you heard of TestOil in Ohio? I've read good stuff about them and they're local to you. It seems like a lot of companies send their samples through Polaris also.
 

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Yea, that's not a bad temp at all.

From the info i've gathered over the years, it's beneficial for oil temps to be at least 220-230* regularly to burn off moisture and excess contaminates. And the 240-280* range is acceptable and the modern synthetic oils are capable of handling this.

What was considered high in Gen2s and I wonder what people are seeing with Gen3 towing 8-9K# in stock form..
Either way, that 40w oil should be just fine on viscosity reading at those higher temps.

Are there legitimate service manuals produced/available by FCA for these engine which show bearing clearances etc?
210-220 is “normal”
230-240 is track day temps on most vehicles.
Many oils start to break down in the 300 degF range.
The reason that matters, is under a load, at higher RPMs, bearing temps will exceed sump temps by 60-75 degF.

As you noted, most modern oils are rated for 260-280.... I’ll let you do the math!

Loaded, high RPMs, with sump temps in the 265+ range... you can see my concerns!

I haven't looked to see if the clearances are listed in the service manual, but I will get back to you on that.
 

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what was the mileage on this sample? you check the stock oil?

I still haven't decided between amsoil or motul but plan to drain the factory oil out shortly, send that used oil for OA along with a fresh sample of new X product I decide to use.

Have you heard of TestOil in Ohio? I've read good stuff about them and they're local to you. It seems like a lot of companies send their samples through Polaris also.
Not familiar with TestOil - Polaris does a great job, at a great price.
The interval is on the sheet. Just shy of 10K.
The factory oil had 562 miles on it!
I have the sample if you want to send it!
 

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Not familiar with TestOil - Polaris does a great job, at a great price.
The interval is on the sheet. Just shy of 10K.
The factory oil had 562 miles on it!
I have the sample if you want to send it!
Completely missed the lube time column, my bad. Thanks!

Mine should be under 1500 miles, so ill put up that OA for the factory oil when I get there.

I'm just curious to see what the oil looks like just after "factory break in". The manual says the engine does not need broke in, but I wonder what the procedure is at the factory when these motors are manufactures. Do they run them with non-synthetic for 20-30 minutes like an engine builder would, and then swap the fluid and ship them out? Or are they assembled, filled with factory oil, fired up on the assembly line to be moved to the other final check point stations, and just shipped?
 

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Ohio, I hate to ask a really dumb question, but that's how you learn, right? Are you happy with the analysis you posted? Are there any surprises or concerns? Those numbers at top right.....in your case a "2", what does that mean exactly? Appreciate the info. I've got just under 3k on factory oil but I may change it pretty soon and send off for analysis. Where do most people send their oil for this analysis?
 

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Ohio, I hate to ask a really dumb question, but that's how you learn, right? Are you happy with the analysis you posted? Are there any surprises or concerns? Those numbers at top right.....in your case a "2", what does that mean exactly? Appreciate the info. I've got just under 3k on factory oil but I may change it pretty soon and send off for analysis. Where do most people send their oil for this analysis?
So - I had to ask myself about some of the stuff flagged!

For Example - Silicon flags mildly (abnormally high)
The Oil uses silicon in the anti-foaming agent - so normal.

Aluminum flags slightly high - and the iron is high compared with others I’ve seen.
The engine is still new - and Red Line Oil is heavily polarized, so the particles tend to remain suspended in the oil - basically, it’s fairly normal, and should decline on subsequent changes.

Potassium flags high - this is a coating on the lifters wearing in - see it commonly in European diesels, and surprisingly, mine looks slightly lower than others I have seen!

They also flagged the oxidation - it’s RED!
Well, that’s actually normal for the oil, hence the comment saying it may be normal, and suggesting I test a new sample of the oil.

The 2 means that they felt metals and such may be slightly above normal/condition may not be normal - but once it’s broken down, it’s actually VERY normal for that oil.

AMSOIL would test lower in all of that, and I feel is the superior oil. Motul should be similar to AMSOIL.

The highly charged nature of the Red Line means it will initially pull more metal dusts away from stuff, etc. It’s also an excellent solvent, so it will dissolve and suspend stuff from inside the engine more aggressively.
 

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210-220 is “normal”
230-240 is track day temps on most vehicles.
Many oils start to break down in the 300 degF range.
The reason that matters, is under a load, at higher RPMs, bearing temps will exceed sump temps by 60-75 degF.

As you noted, most modern oils are rated for 260-280.... I’ll let you do the math!

Loaded, high RPMs, with sump temps in the 265+ range... you can see my concerns!

I haven't looked to see if the clearances are listed in the service manual, but I will get back to you on that.
Yea I think most references though for oil recommendations are based on sump temps, not?

I know several vette guys with dedicated track cars (full slicks, big aero, 700 to the crank) for road racing (watkins glenn, lime rock, VIR, etc) that live in the 260-270* sump temps on a 40w oil with the bearings always looking great on rebuild. Usually the .001" per inch of diameter minus half thou or a little more with an aluminum block.

But i agree, having a more controlled oil temp is ideal. A lot to be considered with material of the rotating assembly, operating temp, etc in regards to viscosity. Too heavy is also not ideal as it won't remove heat and contaminates quick enough.

It'll be a side hobby of mine to dive in to the rotating assembly components, composition, factory engine specs, etc and see how they line up with standards in the high performance industries.
 

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Completely missed the lube time column, my bad. Thanks!

Mine should be under 1500 miles, so ill put up that OA for the factory oil when I get there.

I'm just curious to see what the oil looks like just after "factory break in". The manual says the engine does not need broke in, but I wonder what the procedure is at the factory when these motors are manufactures. Do they run them with non-synthetic for 20-30 minutes like an engine builder would, and then swap the fluid and ship them out? Or are they assembled, filled with factory oil, fired up on the assembly line to be moved to the other final check point stations, and just shipped?
It’s the latter. They don’t have a break-in period in the traditional sense - but they do wear in some!

I put ~300 miles typically. The lack of oil filters during COVID initially meant I had to wait to 562 to change mine!

In particular, I dislike the factory oil in these.
You can find me on Facebook messenger if you want to know why, and I’m happy to share Engine Specs there if you like.
 

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It’s the latter. They don’t have a break-in period in the traditional sense - but they do wear in some!

I put ~300 miles typically. The lack of oil filters during COVID initially meant I had to wait to 562 to change mine!

In particular, I dislike the factory oil in these.
You can find me on Facebook messenger if you want to know why, and I’m happy to share Engine Specs there if you like.
I really appreciate you man! I'll definitely reach out. Thanks!
 

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Yea I think most references though for oil recommendations are based on sump temps, not?

I know several vette guys with dedicated track cars (full slicks, big aero, 700 to the crank) for road racing (watkins glenn, lime rock, VIR, etc) that live in the 260-270* sump temps on a 40w oil with the bearings always looking great on rebuild. Usually the .001" per inch of diameter minus half thou or a little more with an aluminum block.

But i agree, having a more controlled oil temp is ideal. A lot to be considered with material of the rotating assembly, operating temp, etc in regards to viscosity. Too heavy is also not ideal as it won't remove heat and contaminates quick enough.

It'll be a side hobby of mine to dive in to the rotating assembly components, composition, factory engine specs, etc and see how they line up with standards in the high performance industries.
It’s not the weight.
It’s the composition.
Also, swapping it out after a few hundred miles, is very different to 10K after seeing those conditions!
NASCAR engines run 330 sump, on 5w20!
But the composition of that oil looks like AMSOIL signature with less detergent!
 

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It’s not the weight.
It’s the composition.
Also, swapping it out after a few hundred miles, is very different to 10K after seeing those conditions!
NASCAR engines run 330 sump, on 5w20!
But the composition of that oil looks like AMSOIL signature with less detergent!
Lol yea. it's nuts.

I don't think I could saying it's simply not weight. The viscosity at X temp is equally as important as the additive boundary layer. Otherwise you'd be utilizing that boundary layer much earlier and with more force and seizing up much sooner. The composition of what synthetics are present in what amount including the additives are absolutely what defines the total package.

The load and shear those oils see in a race car are also at a constant extreme the whole race. Where the shear and load of an on the road vehicle has peaks and valleys, all of which are on a spectrum. Pulling a trailer up Pikes Peak is also different than pulling one through the mild mountains of Northeastern PA. So being aware of what you're putting it through is another factor.
 

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Lol yea. it's nuts.

I don't think I could saying it's simply not weight. The viscosity at X temp is equally as important as the additive boundary layer. Otherwise you'd be utilizing that boundary layer much earlier and with more force and seizing up much sooner. The composition of what synthetics are present in what amount including the additives are absolutely what defines the total package.

The load and shear those oils see in a race car are also at a constant extreme the whole race. Where the shear and load of an on the road vehicle has peaks and valleys, all of which are on a spectrum. Pulling a trailer up Pikes Peak is also different than pulling one through the mild mountains of Northeastern PA. So being aware of what you're putting it through is another factor.
Here’s where the fun starts - how many of the failures you see on this site were using AMSOIL, Red Line, or another “boutique” quality oil? It’s always Delo, T6, Delvac, etc.
 

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Lol yea. it's nuts.

I don't think I could saying it's simply not weight. The viscosity at X temp is equally as important as the additive boundary layer. Otherwise you'd be utilizing that boundary layer much earlier and with more force and seizing up much sooner. The composition of what synthetics are present in what amount including the additives are absolutely what defines the total package.

The load and shear those oils see in a race car are also at a constant extreme the whole race. Where the shear and load of an on the road vehicle has peaks and valleys, all of which are on a spectrum. Pulling a trailer up Pikes Peak is also different than pulling one through the mild mountains of Northeastern PA. So being aware of what you're putting it through is another factor.
Weight is dictated by clearances. Being 40 weight has little to do with operating temps. It’s a factor that is combined with the clearance to get the correct flow and pressure. But it’s not chosen for temps. You can get a 5w20 to hold up fine at 330+ sump temps.
 

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Here’s where the fun starts - how many of the failures you see on this site were using AMSOIL, Red Line, or another “boutique” quality oil? It’s always Delo, T6, Delvac, etc.
LOL, very true. It's also impossible to gather the bulk of necessary information from most on a forum to have a legitimate investigation also. Hardly anyone can and will pull apart their engine and analyze the components properly.
 

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Weight is dictated by clearances. Being 40 weight has little to do with operating temps. It’s a factor that is combined with the clearance to get the correct flow and pressure. But it’s not chosen for temps. You can get a 5w20 to hold up fine at 330+ sump temps.
yea i understand your argument.

But the way i look at it is, temperature is what dictates the weight, otherwise why would you have a multi-weight oil? The oil behaves differently along the temperature spectrum. The "winter" rating is flow at -22*F. The weight/viscosity rating is flow at 212*F. Your engine is not at 212*F to start, and cold starts were wear used to the worst because the temperature wasn't there to drop the viscosity enough to get in to the bearings properly.

So weight is the viscosity; and viscosity can drop nearly several fold from 212* to 300*. Viscosity index ratings are from 104* to 212* comparison (and they drop in the 4-5 fold range), but i've seen data of it dropping in half from 212* to 300* also.

So whether you're operating at 210* or at 320* can drastically change how your oil is flowing and where it can/can't get. Like i mentioned before, engine builders set their clearances accordingly depending on the material of the block and components which is in respect to how they expand under temperature and what the operating temperature of the vehicle is.

An NHRA Pro Stock runs around 100*F and runs 0W; Cup Cars can be in the 220* range and run 5W-20, and an Outlaw Sprint runs in the 300* range using 15w50. They effectively run a heavier oil as the operating temperature goes up. All naturally aspirated engines.

They run the tightest clearance possible and that requires the thinnest oil possible, but that's in respect to what the operating temperature is; and then also factoring in what those bores and journals will be like during race conditions with the effects on material expansion at whatever degree.

If a Nascar running at 330* sump temps can properly lubricate with a 20 weight that might have a viscosity around 3.5 cSt at that temp; then wouldn't you think that if the car only ran at 200* they would drop it to a 0 weight that flows 3.5 cSt at that temp but still has the same additive package and maintains the same oil wedge in the bearing? Because the 20 weight is maybe flowing around 7-8 cSt at 200* and that's a lot of extra drag.. While the modern synthetics have a high VI and stay stable over a wider range, they still change viscosity to some degree. And those high end race programs live on the edge, so I would think the engineers care 100% about whether the car is at 260* or 330* for the whole race, and they would change their weight accordingly.

These are also extreme cases but everything i've been taught about engine building is that temperature trumps all. You can set clearances on my vette to 0.0017" and i can run a 40w oil and the engine is just fine at 260*. but if i have a cooling issue and the temp jumps to 310, the viscosity is no longer there (and if this is premium race oil, it won't break down at that temperature, it just thins out a little more, but guess what, my clearances were already at the minimum for 260*; not only have i lost viscosity, the journals maybe have expanded even more, losing the oil wedge exponentially), so it'll chew up the rods and mains prettyyyyy quick. But if i was running a 50w oil, it might last the race. However, running that 50w at 260* is just way more parasitic loss and load on the oil pump; and that viscosity may not flow ideally; slowly the transfer of heat and removing contaminants by the oil.

relating this more to our trucks and why I brought it up, cruising around at 220* oil is great, but if someone is towing their 9900# TT in mountainous terrain and their oil temps are hitting 290*, they may be risking the bearings and if this is something they regularly did, it may be advised they bump up a weight. (which if the gen2s had cooling problems, this may have been a contributing factor to way they changes from 30 weight to 40 weight; and yea the cheaper standard oils lose even more viscosity as temps go up). If the factory did a good job though on gen3s, they hooked 13k# up to these trucks in factory configuration and towed up a few mountains to monitor oil temps; and the size of the oil cooler should be sufficient to keep the oil in the correct temp for the recommended weight.

Just thinking out loud...

Do these trucks have an oil thermostat for the cooler?
 

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Discussion Starter #278
we should start a gen3 oil anaylsis thread also when people start getting results.
Great idea! I will get one started.

bio, are you still planning on going with the amsoil?
Absolutely! The only downside is that I have a few free oil changes at the dealer before I make the switch to Amsoil. So, it will be awhile before I get any Amsoil data. I will be taking an oil sample on the factory fill when I go to change it and each oil change thereafter.

what are the current temps people are seeing when towing?
I probably won't do any towing with the 2020 until October, but I'll record the temps when I do.
 
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Absolutely! The only downside is that I have a few free oil changes at the dealer before I make the switch to Amsoil. So, it will be awhile before I get any Amsoil data. I will be taking an oil sample on the factory fill when I go to change it and each oil change thereafter.
Nice; looking forward to comparing those factory oil results.

I've been using Oil Analyzers since 2007. I just ordered another sample kit. Oil Analysis & Oil Testing Services - Oil Analyzers, INC.
I just noticed Oil Analyzers has the same address at Amsoil distribution center also.



For someone googling engine oil comparisons and watching you tube comparisons, here's a simple little write up as to why most of those tests/videos are not valid for motor oil: Don’t Fall For Shady Oil Testing – Driven Racing Oil
 
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