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Discussion Starter #281
Nice; looking forward to comparing those factory oil results.
A lot of people complain about how low their oil is with the factory fill. I'm not sure if it's due to oil consumption or if these engines are being sent out from the factory with low oil. I still need to check mine. I've owned the truck for a month and have only driven it twice. It now has about 140 miles on the odometer. The 2015 is my daily driver and workhorse. The 2020 is the designated highway warrior.

Someone mentioned that the 3rd gen engine is already broke-in from the factory. I'm going to read my owner's manual today to make sure that is true. Even so, I will try to put 500 miles on the engine before I do any towing. This will help break-in the gears and transmission before I put much stress on the truck.

If the owner's manual says the engine is already broke-in, then I'll probably change the factory fill at 4,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first.
 

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A lot of people complain about how low their oil is with the factory fill. I'm not sure if it's due to oil consumption or if these engines are being sent out from the factory with low oil. I still need to check mine. I've owned the truck for a month and have only driven it twice. It now has about 140 miles on the odometer. The 2015 is my daily driver and workhorse. The 2020 is the designated highway warrior.

Someone mentioned that the 3rd gen engine is already broke-in from the factory. I'm going to read my owner's manual today to make sure that is true. Even so, I will try to put 500 miles on the engine before I do any towing. This will help break-in the gears and transmission before I put much stress on the truck.

If the owner's manual says the engine is already broke-in, then I'll probably change the factory fill at 4,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first.
The owners manual says no break in is needed. But, the engine isn't fully broken in which is why many of us see excessive oil consumption in the first few thousand miles as the rings are seating. After that consumption should slow down quite a bit.
 
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An analog Motorola box phone still makes phone calls, but I like my iPhone11. It seems to do a better job!
So the question then is, will the iPhone 11 still be functional in 20 years like that Motorola? :cool: I doubt it.
 

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So the question then is, will the iPhone 11 still be functional in 20 years like that Motorola? :cool: I doubt it.
Just like Mobil1 isn’t the same as it was 20 years ago, that iPhone will change, and be improved!

You can still find cans of Quaker State from the pre-multi-viscosity era... I don’t see people paying a premium for those to use it! I see some people paying a premium to collect them. Never see them used!
 

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A lot of people complain about how low their oil is with the factory fill. I'm not sure if it's due to oil consumption or if these engines are being sent out from the factory with low oil. I still need to check mine. I've owned the truck for a month and have only driven it twice. It now has about 140 miles on the odometer. The 2015 is my daily driver and workhorse. The 2020 is the designated highway warrior.

Someone mentioned that the 3rd gen engine is already broke-in from the factory. I'm going to read my owner's manual today to make sure that is true. Even so, I will try to put 500 miles on the engine before I do any towing. This will help break-in the gears and transmission before I put much stress on the truck.

If the owner's manual says the engine is already broke-in, then I'll probably change the factory fill at 4,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first.
I checked my oil level around 600 miles and it was still near the top of the hash marks. I'll recheck it soon and report back with it at ~1100 miles.

I did the same in regards to the differential break in. Mild to Moderate loads, shorter trips, and no speeding over 65mph the first 500 miles for the gears. I plan to change that oil out shortly also and will send a sample for analysis if they have a category for it. I pulled a light load with it for a few relatively short trips but also kept the speeds down and don't exceed a long distance. The standard break in like any gear manufacturer recommends; light load initially and lower speeds, keeping short intervals and allowing cooling; then same with transition to towing; lower speeds and allowing to cool after 20-30 min a few times.

The manual indeed says no break in necessary. I dont know what the cylinder bore finish is like from factory, what ring pack is used etc, but that was the issue with older diesels; they were final bored so rough that it took forever for them to break in. A modern performance engine is fired up and put under light load immediately above idle RPM and varying mild to moderate RPM for the first 20 minutes or so. Once coolant and oil are up to operating temps, it sees 50-75% load at vary levels and then 100% load not long after. The load is critical and what allows the rings to seat. A normal aftermarket engine should fully seat the rings in the first 20-30 miles; if it's on the dyno, after the first few WOT pulls. This is also done with conventional break in oil that is only to be run 2 hrs or so before switching to full synthetic race oil. Again, overkill could have draining the oil straight from factory and putting in break in oil, then switch to a premium synthetic shortly after haha.

I was torn between how much load to put on the engine, and what I was putting through the diff too, haha. Honestly, I way over analyze it all, and for most it won't make a huge difference. But i also think that if you picked the truck up from the factory, jumped on the interstate and did 90 mph for 3 hours straight, that rear end will have seen excess pressure and a ton of heat at high speed which would shorter it's life span or longer term capabilities.
 

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So I can run and gun @ 975 on the odometer? I’ve been trying to baby up until this point


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So I can run and gun @ 975 on the odometer? I’ve been trying to baby up until this point


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Based on information from the professionals I consult with and the experience I have myself, yes. You should put load to it and allow everything to seat and heat cycle. It's probably already done, but at this point, putting more load to it can only help facilitate that. Putting a premium oil in sooner than later is also beneficial to the longevity from here on out in my opinion also.

Ohio, you have any input?
 

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since i'm a huge Driven fan boy:
there's a video on their thoughts for engine break in. Watch the whole thing, good info and insight throughout
Maybe i'll try to reach out to VM Motori and see if they indeed run a break in oil on the assembly line before shipping the crate engine to the manufacturer for vehicle assembly.
 

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It appears the new HTHS (high temp/high shear) viscosity rating is the viscosity measured at 302*F. It's in cP units which seems to convert directly to cSt.
To me it makes sense they've been adding this new measurement as a standard to the oils because over the years, operating temps have become increasingly higher. Knowing the viscosity at 212* isn't enough anymore, so knowing how stable the oil is at temps in the upper 200s range where turbochargered high output vehicles can get to under large load, ensures the engine will stay together.

Some note HTHS in regards to fuel efficiency, but that's just understanding the parasitic loss caused by an over-viscous oil going through a fixed spaced. Having a low HTHS would keep the oil thinner if the engine is operating in that high 200s range, causing less resistance to flow and better fuel effeciency. However, there is a point where it can be too low and cause extreme wear.

High temp, and too low of viscosity, means there is extreme engine wear. Low temp and high viscosity, excessive opposition to flow and oil may not reach the parts adequately. But again, You can set clearances to X, if it's the tightest they can ever go when the engine operates at 200* normal with say a 20 weight oil, and then you block the cooling and let that engine go to 300*, the viscosity will fall, bearing contact will be made, and the engine will seize. (if they were already at the max)

Here's Amsoils bulletin for the new european forumulas. https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g3395.pdf
The "recommended" AFE 5w40 has a viscosity of 43 at 104*; a viscosity of 8.1 at 212*; and a viscosity of 2.7 at 302*.

The modern synthetics have polymeric viscosity modifiers in them that stay small & folded at low temps to minimally effect the base oil viscosity at lower temps, but unfold and become larger at high temps to aid the base oil as it losses viscosity from the increased heat and help maintain the overall packages total viscosity to some extent. But shown by the numbers above, they're still dropping nearly 3 to 5 fold per 100*.
 

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Based on information from the professionals I consult with and the experience I have myself, yes. You should put load to it and allow everything to seat and heat cycle. It's probably already done, but at this point, putting more load to it can only help facilitate that. Putting a premium oil in sooner than later is also beneficial to the longevity from here on out in my opinion also.

Ohio, you have any input?
Pretty accurate overall.
Load sounds great - But these are turbocharged, meaning a higher likelihood of breaking things initially if you try that....realistically, if the bore is finished properly, it’s sealed from the start - you are basically just doing the equivalent of a final finishing. It should have very little wear, and the oil isn’t super critical. I hear a lot about “break in” oil. For me, that’s a shelf synthetic of the right viscosity, which typically has plenty of detergents, and little to no Group V and light amounts of Group IV.

The differential won’t like you pulling a 10K trailer early on, but other than that... Driving it 90 probably won’t affect it much. It’s not quite to those tolerances.
Mine actually has a fluid heater!
I think early changes on fluids is a good bet for long term health. Go ahead and get the abrasive materials out before they can do damage.
 

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Some note HTHS in regards to fuel efficiency, but that's just understanding the parasitic loss caused by an over-viscous oil going through a fixed spaced. Having a low HTHS would keep the oil thinner if the engine is operating in that high 200s range, causing less resistance to flow and better fuel effeciency. However, there is a point where it can be too low and cause extreme wear.

High temp, and too low of viscosity, means there is extreme engine wear. Low temp and high viscosity, excessive opposition to flow and oil may not reach the parts adequately. But again, You can set clearances to X, if it's the tightest they can ever go when the engine operates at 200* normal with say a 20 weight oil, and then you block the cooling and let that engine go to 300*, the viscosity will fall, bearing contact will be made, and the engine will seize. (if they were already at the max)
Polymer based Viscosity Index Improvers have been a mainstay since Quaker State went Multi-Viscosity - the quality of those compounds has improved.
But what it means, traditionally - is that a hydro-treated Class 3 had a maximum Viscosity Index of 100. That’s not enough to generate a 5w20. Much less a 0w40 - so you see a lot of VII - to get to those 170-180+ numbers needed. And if you ran M1 in a Turbo Dodge, and sent it out for analysis in 1999, it doesn’t shear - and in 2005 - it was a 20W before it hit 2000 miles!

The PAO based oils could be made to a Natural VI of something around 150.
Group V oils (POE) can easily exceed that.

Using Fischer Tropsch method, you now have 3+, where VI can be 200+.
However, like any Dino oil, it struggles with temps.

My understanding of current race formulations is they will be 10-15% POE, about 25% PAO, and the rest is additives with III+ base.

As for HTHS - too low, rings scrape the walls - too high, oil bypasses the rings. 3.6 Pentastar - first couple years are 5w30 - then they witch to 5w20.... oil consumption was an issue! It is factory equipped with an ultra-low-tension ring set.

HTHS is a balancing act. You need something within a range that works.

NOACK volatility is important!
I see very little oil in the intakes of my vehicles - that’s because Red Line is very low volatility - meaning there’s not much vapor to pull through the intake - also, as the rings scrape past, they vaporize the oil due to the high temperatures in the region -
Oil use, specifically, is the leading source of non-burnable Ash deposits in the DPF.

AMSOIL in the literature for the Signature Diesel, compares it to a market leading Diesel Oil and you see a 76% reduction in oil consumption (rings, intake pull) going from that market leader (11.8% NOACK) to theirs (9%).

So, you see the factory oil, which by all accounts is just shy of 15%, and I run like hell!

Most of the higher end race oils you see will be in the 8-9% range, on the high end!

So, why AMSOIL, or Motul - the composition of the base stock, and the components used to get to that, strongly resemble top tier race oils - 10-15% POE, which copes with the 300+ temps we’ll, 25% PAO because it’s super clean, and a great carrier for additives, and balance III+.

Currently, that is the best formulation available. they both use top of the line additive packs, with any VIIs used being the latest generation, that deteriorate less than 25% in a normal cycle, and they strive to formulate without using VIIs.

LE oils would fall into that same category.

Red Line uses an excessive amount of POE. It means that when things go south, it’s protection level isn’t as good. It also means shorter drain intervals. (It far exceeds 10K, and I’m not concerned with things going south!) I’ve made my reasons known for running it, I hope this clears up why you should stick with one of these other quality brands!

At the end of the day, my primary advice, is sample! That will alert you early if there is a problem - like excessive soot buildup, or signs of antifreeze, like Sodium.

But you should see better fuel economy long term with one of the higher end oils, due to SAPS contamination of the DPF being reduced. You will see less wear Typically, and have more margin when things go wrong. It’s just better in general! And Motul and AMSOIL are both around $8/qt, or roughly the same as the factory Pennzoil!
 

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A little comfort for anyone leery of going the Amsoil route:

"Thank you for the question. We do support the 5W-40 European Car Formula (EFM) for use in this engine. However, you are correct in the spec requirement and this oil does not carry this spec on it's data sheet or bottle. This is a case where we have extensively tested this product and it does satisfy the 12991 spec, but we are not going to carry it on this product at this time. It is considered an "exception" where we will stand behind it for warranty. An OEM would have the right to deny warranty for using this oil if there was a failure resulting from the oil, however in that case our own warranty would step in to cover any damage associated with the oil.
Thank you,
AMSOIL Technical Services
Tech Line: 715-399-8324
Email: [email protected] "

I was still waiting on that response and wanted to stay OEM Warranty compliant in the first few years, so I already have Motul 8100 X-Cess Gen2 5w40 on it's way in the mail. You'll at least get an OA out of me for that new and eventually used, but I'll be going Amsoil after that for the next evaluation. The preferred customer purchase is a pretty good discount and i'm converting most of my equipment over anyway. If anyone wants feed back on their 100:1 marine and saber two stroke oils, i'll have it. haha.
 

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Discussion Starter #293
A little comfort for anyone leery of going the Amsoil route:
If the Amsoil EFM meets specs, why won't Amsoil put the MS-12991 on the technical sheets and bottle label?
 

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Discussion Starter #295
Its kind of like rottela not putting ms-10902 on any of stuff but claims it meets spec.
My guess is that the Amsoil EFM doesn't meet the full MS-12991 spec, or they would add it to the label. Sometimes Amsoil doesn't meet spec due to a technicality such as having too much ZDDP, etc. Like they mentioned in their written response, the believe the oil will perform as good, if not better, than MS-12991, but they cannot use the MS-12991 label due to a technicality.
 

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My guess is that the Amsoil EFM doesn't meet the full MS-12991 spec, or they would add it to the label. Sometimes Amsoil doesn't meet spec due to a technicality such as having too much ZDDP, etc. Like they mentioned in their written response, the believe the oil will perform as good, if not better, than MS-12991, but they cannot use the MS-12991 label due to a technicality.
So I guess the question is, would you guys use in in your EcoD? That's the one I was going with.
 

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Discussion Starter #297
So I guess the question is, would you guys use in in your EcoD? That's the one I was going with.
Yes, that's what I'm planning to use. I still have two free dealer oil changes, but I'll be taking UOAs to compare with the Amsoil when I start running it.
 

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Question.. Currently on my truck. Has 1200 total miles on it. Where on the stick should it be. Engine was cold when I took this picture. Oil life Gauge is at 86%.. Should I add or leave it alone for now?




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So I guess the question is, would you guys use in in your EcoD? That's the one I was going with.
Nope. I wouldn't.

These engines are problematic and have a poor track record. And, they are many thousands of dollars to rebuild or replace. WHY anybody would chance warranty over a particular brand of oil is beyond me. I'll stick with the $7/quart stuff that carries the spec on the bottle and will have no problems.
 

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Discussion Starter #300
Question.. Currently on my truck. Has 1200 total miles on it. Where on the stick should it be. Engine was cold when I took this picture. Oil life Gauge is at 86%.. Should I add or leave it alone for now?
For whatever reason, it seems common, at least on the early production EcoDiesels, for them to either come out of the factory with not enough oil or they are burning oil. If I were you, I would take it to the dealer and have them document it and top it off. It's hard to see your fill level, but it appears to be at the 'add mark'. I'll check mine today. I'm only at 130 miles on the odometer, but that will give me a better indication of what is happening.
 
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