RAM 1500 Diesel Forum banner

21 - 40 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
883 Posts
Earlier this year, my turbo failed. The cause of the failure was a crack in the housing. The main cause of the crack, according to the dealer, appeared to be heat.
Approximately how many miles did you have on your truck when the turbo failed?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
403 Posts
I don't have the technical chops to weigh in on the oil cooler discussion but I am interested in the delete path you're taking...

Since GDE isn't able to play in the sandbox anymore, how are you able to go full delete with your current Hot Tune? In other words, I'm under the impression that a full delete is not possible with the 'Hot' GDE tune since there is still some EGR and regen functionality and the off-road tune is required for a full delete. Is that not correct?


Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
883 Posts
I can't recall exact mileage at the moment, but I was around 80k. I'll double check tomorrow.
I'm at 76,000 miles and I've done a lot of heavy towing. I wonder if the day is coming that my turbo might fail, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
You act like the stock oil cooler is actually well designed thats not true. Its designed as cheap as possible and has an extremely poor efficiency. I've experimented with five different oil cooler tweaks so far and they have all done as well or better than the stock oil cooler. Yes I do think the one he chose is a little small and wont fit the area well but should work if he adds airflow to the cooler.
Well, it is a fact that the OEM cooler is well designed though the quality control of the heat exchanger is obviously flawed. And, it has a very high degree of efficiency. Enough for the high towing needs of the Ram? No... but nevertheless a very high efficiency cooler. This is why virtually all of the OEMs use oil coolers that are substantially similar to this oil cooler for their performance cars. I'm sure there are dozens more, but the Ford GT supercar uses a substantially similar oil cooler as does the Mustang GT with the performance package, as (did) the Boss 302's during their years or production. The OEM's have chosen this design for many reasons - but one of the principal reasons is efficiency.

You say you have experimented with 5 different "oil cooler tweaks" so far. By design, a coolant based cooler is going to maintain oil temperatures that are very close to water temperatures. This "attribute" of a coolant-based oil cooler is not at all indicative of its overall BTU capability. As an example, if the ED cooler was ~3X its current size and perhaps double its overall BTU capability, you would still see oil temps during "normal" driving that were substantially similar to water temps.

In contrast, in your testing of an air-based oil cooler(s), steady state cooling will no longer be tied to coolant temps and likely can be (steady state) much lower than coolant temps (depending on if an oil thermostat, if employed.) BUT... maximum BTU-shedding capability has nothing to do with steady-state oil temperatures. These lower steady-state temps can lull you into a false sense of security where you believe an improvement has been made.

If modestly sized (<100 sq in) air-based oil coolers could provide the same or better BTU cooling as a coolant-based cooler, then all of the OEMs would use those. They don't. They don't because the coolant-based coolers are simply way more efficient. (Don't take my word for it - just do some reading.)

But, let's get back to the OP. All that I am saying is that the OEM cooler has a pretty high BTU/hr capability. If you were to add a cooler to be in series, whatever additional cooling you provide will be additive. But, most if not all oil cooler kits elect to replace the OEM cooler. If the objective is to increase cooling capacity, then obviously you need to replace the existing cooler with a cooler that has a higher BTU/hr capability than the OEM. My point is that this threshold is quite high.... perhaps higher than common sense would dictate. To wit, Bounty Hunter is nicely saying that the Oil Cooler Kits as offered, have been insufficient. He had to put together a system that uses a SUBSTANTIALLY larger heat exchanger to make an improvement over the OEM system. Let me be explicit about the scenario I've been trying to caution the OP about.

1. You bypass the existing cooler.
2. You replace that cooler with a modestly-sized air-based cooler
3. You drive the ED for a couple of months and notice that oil temps are consistently lower than they were as OEM
4. You are happy/satisfied.
5. On a hot day, you tow a 7.000lb load up a long grade.... and oil temps skyrocket

This last tow-load test is the ONLY test that will reveal the true max cooling capability of the cooler.... and will be the first time you can confirm (or not) that your air-based cooler is doing a better job than the OEM cooler. Point 3) above is simply a characteristic of an air-based cooler and can dangerously lull you into a false sense of accomplishment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
I'm at 76,000 miles and I've done a lot of heavy towing. I wonder if the day is coming that my turbo might fail, too.
The exact mileage when I took the truck to the dealer was 81588. I know it started leaking before this, maybe around 75000 but got really bad right before I took it in. So watch for coolant leaking near the back of your engine. I know there is an inlet pipe for the coolant going into the turbo that the dealer said has gone out in a few trucks they have worked in (as well as others reporting this online). That's what we were hoping for but it ended up being the turbo itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
I don't have the technical chops to weigh in on the oil cooler discussion but I am interested in the delete path you're taking...

Since GDE isn't able to play in the sandbox anymore, how are you able to go full delete with your current Hot Tune? In other words, I'm under the impression that a full delete is not possible with the 'Hot' GDE tune since there is still some EGR and regen functionality and the off-road tune is required for a full delete. Is that not correct?


Bob
Bob,

I have the sft stage 2 tune purchased already. I had originally planned on purchasing gde stage 2 as well and comparing the 2 companies tunes like I did with stage 1 but that's not possible anymore.

I honestly would be completely fine with my gde stage 1 tune with the DPF/def delete and have wondered if it would be possible to turn off those sensors using alphaobd or something so it didn't throw codes. My only concern about going stage 2 is over spinning our small turbos.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,493 Posts
Well, it is a fact that the OEM cooler is well designed though the quality control of the heat exchanger is obviously flawed. And, it has a very high degree of efficiency. Enough for the high towing needs of the Ram? No... but nevertheless a very high efficiency cooler. This is why virtually all of the OEMs use oil coolers that are substantially similar to this oil cooler for their performance cars. I'm sure there are dozens more, but the Ford GT supercar uses a substantially similar oil cooler as does the Mustang GT with the performance package, as (did) the Boss 302's during their years or production. The OEM's have chosen this design for many reasons - but one of the principal reasons is efficiency.

You say you have experimented with 5 different "oil cooler tweaks" so far. By design, a coolant based cooler is going to maintain oil temperatures that are very close to water temperatures. This "attribute" of a coolant-based oil cooler is not at all indicative of its overall BTU capability. As an example, if the ED cooler was ~3X its current size and perhaps double its overall BTU capability, you would still see oil temps during "normal" driving that were substantially similar to water temps.

In contrast, in your testing of an air-based oil cooler(s), steady state cooling will no longer be tied to coolant temps and likely can be (steady state) much lower than coolant temps (depending on if an oil thermostat, if employed.) BUT... maximum BTU-shedding capability has nothing to do with steady-state oil temperatures. These lower steady-state temps can lull you into a false sense of security where you believe an improvement has been made.

If modestly sized (<100 sq in) air-based oil coolers could provide the same or better BTU cooling as a coolant-based cooler, then all of the OEMs would use those. They don't. They don't because the coolant-based coolers are simply way more efficient. (Don't take my word for it - just do some reading.)

But, let's get back to the OP. All that I am saying is that the OEM cooler has a pretty high BTU/hr capability. If you were to add a cooler to be in series, whatever additional cooling you provide will be additive. But, most if not all oil cooler kits elect to replace the OEM cooler. If the objective is to increase cooling capacity, then obviously you need to replace the existing cooler with a cooler that has a higher BTU/hr capability than the OEM. My point is that this threshold is quite high.... perhaps higher than common sense would dictate. To wit, Bounty Hunter is nicely saying that the Oil Cooler Kits as offered, have been insufficient. He had to put together a system that uses a SUBSTANTIALLY larger heat exchanger to make an improvement over the OEM system. Let me be explicit about the scenario I've been trying to caution the OP about.

1. You bypass the existing cooler.
2. You replace that cooler with a modestly-sized air-based cooler
3. You drive the ED for a couple of months and notice that oil temps are consistently lower than they were as OEM
4. You are happy/satisfied.
5. On a hot day, you tow a 7.000lb load up a long grade.... and oil temps skyrocket

This last tow-load test is the ONLY test that will reveal the true max cooling capability of the cooler.... and will be the first time you can confirm (or not) that your air-based cooler is doing a better job than the OEM cooler. Point 3) above is simply a characteristic of an air-based cooler and can dangerously lull you into a false sense of accomplishment.
My testing was towing up a 6% grade and it didn’t take that big of a cooler to perform like the factory cooler. Also if the factory cooler was efficient it wouldn’t have 30 degree delta under load but it does. If one added a larger water to oil cooler then the cooling system would be inadequate and would over heat the coolant. So a large air to oil cooler is the easiest fix.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
883 Posts
Here are some cooling changes on the new III gen Ecodiesel:

"Other changes include a change from a charge air cooler (or intercooler) that used to be mounted in front of the radiator to a “low slung CAC,” as the chief engineer Rod Romain put it. This means the air meant to cool the water in the radiator doesn’t have to pick up heat from the intercooler first, thus theoretically improving engine cooling performance."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
Update on my water pump. Turned out my water pump was fine. I dug into it, and noticed the black bypass tube had coolant on it and around the bolts. I pulled that off, cleaned it a little and sprayed soapy water on it. I plugged one end and blew in the other end and saw bubbles and heard it leaking. It was leaking around the rubber gasket groove and through to the bolt sleeve. $80 bucks for that stupid plastic 4" tube from the dealer. Got it put back together in 10 minutes, filled it with coolant and drove it for an hour. No more leaking.
84358
84359
84360

Part# 68211200AC Tube: Water Bypass

Found it much cheaper online tonight for those of you who may need one in the future. Took a while at the dealer to find the right part so I didn't have the part number, and since they could get one in today I just went through them. https://www.moparwholesaleparts.com/oem-parts/mopar-tube-water-by-pass-68211200ac
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Gputah - great job to diagnose and repair your coolant leak, congrats! Regarding the oil cooler, I have some connections with some engineers within an OEM who have taken a look at the size of the OEM oil-to-water cooler in the ED. Their educated speculation is that the stock cooler is probably good for ~60,000 BTU of cooling capacity. As you look for an oil to air solution, 60,000 BTU will get you back to even and everything greater than that will get you additive oil cooling over what you have today. I wish you success in this endeavor as well. FYI - as Setrab publishes all of the oil cooler specs, you may be able to use their charts to see the sq-in vs BTU capacity as some indication of what similar-sized coolers may be able to provide. Here's the link:Setrab Specs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,909 Posts
Efficiency and capacity are different issues. I believe the stock cooler is plenty efficient, it is just improperly sized.

The ecodiesel also has other cooling related issues such as the stacked grill with condenser, radiator, and CAC all in line. This has been dealt with in the new design I believe. Solving one of the issues somewhat alleviates the others. Solving all of them or as many as RAM did for the 2020 gave them enough to rate it to 12,000 lbs towing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
MAS - fully agree! I agree that the Ram cooling capacity is just not there - that's the primary reason I sold my truck after 60,000 trouble-free miles. We were starting to tow more in hotter weather and trying to manage oil temps with heavier loads was weighing too much on me.

Rather than sell the ED, I briefly considered trying to "fix" the ED situation. We have a lot of experience in racing and we we have designed and sold oil cooling solutions for high performance cars. In trying to HELP the op, I only offer that the fix is not so easy. Assuming OEM cooler is good for 60K BTU/hr (and it may need 100K or more), engineering a cooler and placement to achieve that is very, very hard. Frankly, it was a great business case for us to look at... we know first-hand the need, we know how to connect with owners (the forum!), so all we had to do is to develop a solution. It is our opinion that a solution is exceptionally hard. It is simply not as easy as buying a bypass and using an aftermarket oil to air cooler. 90% of the time this approach will end up with LESS capacity than the stock set-up. This is the caution I have been trying to convey to the OP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/race-coating-descriptions/bbe-heat-emitting-coating/ for those that have heat issues, have you considered coatings and heat wraps?

My downpipe was ceramic coated and heat wrapped. This has to help keep some heat out of the engine bay and away from the transmission. I had the turbo ceramic coated on my VW TDI and it helped lower intake temps (intake was inches from exhaust manifold). If the ecoD had more room, I would had pulled the manifolds off for ceramic coatings. http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/race-coating-descriptions/white-lightning-exhaust-coatings/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
Started on my Stage 2 deletes today. I had limited time, but was able to remove the EGR today up to the new bracket for the front coolant line. I'll finish that in the morning and then move onto the exhaust. It took me about 2 hours to do the EGR removal, including trying to find some of my tools :). I removed the passenger wheel and inner fender which made it pretty easy to get to the hex bolt and up pipe.

Thanks @Kazimodo for the link to the write up thread you did. It helped a ton.
 
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
Top