[RangerGress]

Draft 2 now attached. Most significant addition is working around the radiator's desire to poke a hole in the driver's side intercooler hose.

 

[Kneebull]

Excellent write up. Looking forward to hearing how much better it cools your rig!!

BTW... do you have a pic of the finished install?

 

[Bounty Hunter]

Amazon says it does not fit my EcoDiesel. Looking at your write-up I can clearly see why.

Have you every hit the high oil temp warning or have you had a de-rate condition due to hot oil or coolant?

 

[RangerGress]

Amazon says it does not fit my EcoDiesel. Looking at your write-up I can clearly see why.

Have you every hit the high oil temp warning or have you had a de-rate condition due to hot oil or coolant?

The fitment was actually a fair amount better than I feared. I expected that there might be serious EcoD related differences vs. the Hemi rad, that I'd only realize once I bumped into them. The imagineering required to make it work was pretty trivial. People are going to have a broad range of reactions to imagineering tho. Some folks will inevitably be very oriented on perfect OEM fitment and probably quite averse to imagineering. I've been racing cars for 15yrs--imagineering is half the fun.

There was one more problem I had to work around--the radiator's drain valve. I'm writing up that section now and will post an updated version in a couple hours.

 

[Old Iron 1978]

Interested on seeing the temp differences you get.

 

[MR. TED]

Nice Work !

 

[Gputah]

Great work! I have gone back and forth on what I want to do with my truck. I picked up 2 options. First is the same oil cooler that @Bounty Hunter runs, along with the thermostat and everything needed for that. The other is a very large oil to water cooler/exchanger, typically used in race applications. This option would maintain quicker oil warm ups in the winter. My idea with the heat exchanger was to move the intercooler behind the bumper and switch it to an air to water intercooler, and then use the larger oil to water cooler with the factory radiator.

Main goal is to lower EGTs and oil temps. I like the idea of a larger radiator and may just switch my oil cooler to the larger heat exchanger and upgrade my radiator, leaving the stock intercooler in place (for now) as the air to water intercooler is much more complex and I haven't had time to tackle that project yet.

I'm interested to see how this radiator performs with your truck. I'll most likely wait to decide what to do until after I see your results.

 

[RangerGress]

Great work! I have gone back and forth on what I want to do with my truck. I picked up 2 options. First is the same oil cooler that @Bounty Hunter runs, along with the thermostat and everything needed for that. The other is a very large oil to water cooler/exchanger, typically used in race applications. This option would maintain quicker oil warm ups in the winter. My idea with the heat exchanger was to move the intercooler behind the bumper and switch it to an air to water intercooler, and then use the larger oil to water cooler with the factory radiator.

Main goal is to lower EGTs and oil temps. I like the idea of a larger radiator and may just switch my oil cooler to the larger heat exchanger and upgrade my radiator, leaving the stock intercooler in place (for now) as the air to water intercooler is much more complex and I haven't had time to tackle that project yet.

I'm interested to see how this radiator performs with your truck. I'll most likely wait to decide what to do until after I see your results.

Air to water intercooling for turbos suck. The water is too hot to significantly cool the intake charge. Air to air cooling is better for that application because the ambient air is reasonably cool. People attempt to cool forced air intake charge with air/water heat exchangers when packaging is such a big problem that the disadvantages of trying to cool 300deg air with 200deg water is outweighed by the ability to stash the heat exchanger wherever you want, as opposed to figuring out how to put it in the air blast. Race cars, for example, are very sensitive to aero drag.

I didn't understand "switch my oil cooler to the larger heat exchanger." Bounty Hunter replaced his oil/water heat exchanger with a "real" oil cooler. Unsurprisingly, he got good results with that mod. Have to be careful with the word "heat exchanger" because strictly speaking, a radiator and an intercooler are both "heat exchangers." As is the AC condenser. Easy way to keep confusion at bay is to use the word "heat exchanger" to only reference the oil/water heat exchanger that is designed to quickly warm our oil.

 

[Gputah]

Air to water intercooling for turbos suck. The water is too hot to significantly cool the intake charge. Air to air cooling is better for that application because the ambient air is reasonably cool. People attempt to cool forced air intake charge with air/water heat exchangers when packaging is such a big problem that the disadvantages of trying to cool 300deg air with 200deg water is outweighed by the ability to stash the heat exchanger wherever you want, as opposed to figuring out how to put it in the air blast. Race cars, for example, are very sensitive to aero drag.

I didn't understand "switch my oil cooler to the larger heat exchanger." Bounty Hunter replaced his oil/water heat exchanger with a "real" oil cooler. Unsurprisingly, he got good results with that mod. Have to be careful with the word "heat exchanger" because strictly speaking, a radiator and an intercooler are both "heat exchangers." As is the AC condenser. Easy way to keep confusion at bay is to use the word "heat exchanger" to only reference the oil/water heat exchanger that is designed to quickly warm our oil.

If you don't cool the water for the air to water you are correct.

I've used air to water intercoolers in other vehicles with great success and the big 3 manufacturers are switching to them in the new diesels, Ford moved the superduty 6.7 diesel to air to water intercooler several years ago for many reasons but the main reason is they are much more efficient for the size than air to air. The air to water system will have a small radiator and will cool the water sufficiently to just above ambient, like Fords does.

I've used water coolers for my overxlocked computers for years as well and understand how they work.

This is the heate exchanger (going off your words to avoid confusion)I have for the oil, though I was able to pick it up for much less.

DB-30500 Water to Oil Cooler

This beast of a cooler is called "Big Ugly". It doesn't live up to it's name because this cooler is a work of art. It has been in the market for 22 years and is a proven performer. It is a water to oil cooler and incorporates a 58mm 2-pass oil cooler with an all aluminum construction. A major...

www.fluidyne.com

 

[RangerGress]

If you don't cool the water for the air to water you are correct.

I've used air to water intercoolers in other vehicles with great success and the big 3 manufacturers are switching to them in the new diesels, Ford moved the superduty 6.7 diesel to air to water intercooler several years ago for many reasons but the main reason is they are much more efficient for the size than air to air. The air to water system will have a small radiator and will cool the water sufficiently to just above ambient, like Fords does.

I've used water coolers for my overxlocked computers for years as well and understand how they work.

This is the heate exchanger (going off your words to avoid confusion)I have for the oil, though I was able to pick it up for much less.

DB-30500 Water to Oil Cooler

This beast of a cooler is called "Big Ugly". It doesn't live up to it's name because this cooler is a work of art. It has been in the market for 22 years and is a proven performer. It is a water to oil cooler and incorporates a 58mm 2-pass oil cooler with an all aluminum construction. A major...

www.fluidyne.com

Sorry, but that won't do much good. Heat transfer is proportional to temperature difference and trying to get much heat xferred with only a 20-30deg temp delta between hot coolant and oil temps, just isn't worth doing.

 

[Gputah]

Ok, but it's still packaging driving the show. It's a result of a person deliberately choosing heat xfer inefficiency because packaging was determined to be more important. No matter how much efficiency one can get by cooling water and then using that to cool air--2 stages, it will always more efficient to just use air to cool air to get it done in a single stage. Any time there are multiple stages in a thermodynamic process, each stage adds it's own inefficiencies. The use of water as an intermediate heat exchange fluid is the addition of a stage, and therefore the addition of inefficiency.

Except water has much better heat transfer properties so the efficiency is still significantly better than air to air alone. You can run a tiny 10"x15" radiator for the water in front and drop the water temps to near ambient. I would encourage you to do some research on air to water for heat transfer.

Regardless, I had no intention of hijacking your thread.

 

[RangerGress]

Except water has much better heat transfer properties so the efficiency is still significantly better than air to air alone. You can run a tiny 10"x15" radiator for the water in front and drop the water temps to near ambient. I would encourage you to do some research on air to water for heat transfer.

Regardless, I had no intention of hijacking your thread.

We've got two different threads here, cooling water with oil and cooling intake charge with water.

Re. I should do some research on air to water for heat xfer. Ah, ok. I should go read claims made in marketing departments? No offense, and I mean that sincerely, but I would encourage you to take 3 semesters of Thermodynamics and 3 semesters of Heat Transfer. If you can add a stage to a thermodynamic process and gain efficiency, you will violate the 2nd law of Thermodynamics, and rule the world with your perpetual motion machine.

The second law of Thermodynamics says that Entropy always increases. Think of Entropy as the loss of efficiency. It would be better to call it "loss of order" but that's confusing. If you added a stage in the heat exchange process that was somehow magically efficient, the change of Entropy would be zero. If you could add a stage an actually reduce inefficiency, which is what you are describing, Entropy would be negative. But Entropy is never zero and it's never negative. Entropy--call it inefficiency, always gets worse. And that's why adding a stage to the heat exchange process, all else being equal, can't make it more efficient.

 

[Bounty Hunter]

Have you every hit the high oil temp warning or have you had a de-rate condition due to hot oil or coolant?

 

[RangerGress]

Have you every hit the high oil temp warning or have you had a de-rate condition due to hot oil or coolant?

No, never. I've never even had the coolant hit 230deg. I always back off the throttle when it gets that hot. Also, I've not been able to find any info that there is a derate coolant temp. It certainly makes sense that there is, but I've not come across someone that says he found the temp. It would have to be someone with a big oil cooler like you. That would let us rule out oil temp as the cause of the derate.

I've never paid much attention to oil temp. As long as I'm not near the oil derate temp <shrugs shoulders>, I just don't care about oil temp.

 

[Gputah]

We've got two different threads here, cooling water with oil and cooling intake charge with water.

Re. I should do some research on air to water for heat xfer. Ah, ok. I should go read claims made in marketing departments? No offense, and I mean that sincerely, but I would encourage you to take 3 semesters of Thermodynamics and 3 semesters of Heat Transfer. If you can add a stage to a thermodynamic process and gain efficiency, you will violate the 2nd law of Thermodynamics, and rule the world with your perpetual motion machine.

The second law of Thermodynamics says that Entropy always increases. Think of Entropy as the loss of efficiency. It would be better to call it "loss of order" but that's confusing. If you added a stage in the heat exchange process that was somehow magically efficient, the change of Entropy would be zero. If you could add a stage an actually reduce inefficiency, which is what you are describing, Entropy would be negative. But Entropy is never zero and it's never negative. Entropy--call it inefficiency, always gets worse. And that's why adding a stage to the heat exchange process, all else being equal, can't make it more efficient.

I apologize. I was unaware you already knew everything. I'll let the 1000+hp racers know they've been doing it wrong by using air to water. Because Entropy says it can't work.

Yes part of it is packaging, but to get the same cooling effect they would need an air to air intercooler roughly the size of the car. Which would then get heatsoaked long before they raced and further drop efficiency.

I'm not as stupid as you think I am and I doubt you are as smart as you think you are. Everyone can learn and improve. The moment when you think you already know enough and won't even put forth effort to learn is the moment you fail in life.
I understand what I have learned about air to water systems and their benefits. I know the pros and cons of both, having experience in both. Having seen intake temps 180 degrees above ambient while towing in my truck I am confident a small air to water system with a reservoir will out perform the factory system by quite a bit.

 

[Gputah]

No, never. I've never even had the coolant hit 230deg. I always back off the throttle when it gets that hot. Also, I've not been able to find any info that there is a derate coolant temp. It certainly makes sense that there is, but I've not come across someone that says he found the temp. It would have to be someone with a big oil cooler like you. That would let us rule out oil temp as the cause of the derate.

I've never paid much attention to oil temp. As long as I'm not near the oil derate temp <shrugs shoulders>, I just don't care about oil temp.

Sounds like you haven't used your truck to work much. Or don't live in a location that has mountains. To keep the temps down stock I'd have to stop completely and couldn't go up half the canyons around me.

 

[RangerGress]

I apologize. I was unaware you already knew everything. I'll let the 1000+hp racers know they've been doing it wrong by using air to water. Because Entropy says it can't work.

Yes part of it is packaging, but to get the same cooling effect they would need an air to air intercooler roughly the size of the car. Which would then get heatsoaked long before they raced and further drop efficiency.

I'm not as stupid as you think I am and I doubt you are as smart as you think you are. Everyone can learn and improve. The moment when you think you already know enough and won't even put forth effort to learn is the moment you fail in life.
I understand what I have learned about air to water systems and their benefits. I know the pros and cons of both, having experience in both. Having seen intake temps 180 degrees above ambient while towing in my truck I am confident a small air to water system with a reservoir will out perform the factory system by quite a bit.

I do not think you are stupid. In fact, I assume that you are perfectly competent at whatever it is that you do.

When I was a young engineering student, I was also in the Marines as a radio operator. To my surprise, all, and I mean ALL of the more senior radio operators and technicians had really strange, and by that I mean totally wrong, ideas about how both radio and electricity worked. They were not stupid, they just lacked a technical education and some misinformed soul had given them bad scoop about how these things worked. Wasn't their fault, but they'd had these crazy ideas about how radio and electricity worked for so long and they were so used to having their opinions respected that there was no changing their mind. If I tried to help them understand radio wave propagation and electricity fundamentals, they would only have gotten mad at the young punk know-it-all.

So now, when I irritate the shit out of someone in some technical discussion in the Internet, I am reminded of how impossible it was to help those older Marines understand the science behind their flawed funny ideas.

When perceived results don't synch with physics, then folks are missing something. Then it's just a matter of figuring out what might be missing. For example, if the 1000+hp types are preferentially using engine coolant to cool their forced air intake charge instead of air blast, then we're missing something. Like maybe they need their charge cooling to work when stationary and therefore have no air blast available, which is not our scenario.

 

[Crash68]

@Gputah last time I checked, 1000 hp race cars are not stationary. I also know an engineer that didn't get it right usually doesn't admit it until their boss has to pay to fix their screw up.

 

[RangerGress]

@Gputah last time I checked, 1000 hp race cars are not stationary. I also know an engineer that didn't get it right usually doesn't admit it until their boss has to pay to fix their screw up.

Could be a dragster. That would fit Gputah's scenario. Stunt types and drifters also needs lots of power when not actually moving all that fast.

 

[Crash68]

Could be a dragster. That would fit Gputah's scenario. Stunt types and drifters also needs lots of power when not actually moving all that fast.

Still not stationary, especially not when the money is on the line.
Stop assuming that you know more than someone who has a whole lot more experience in what he's talking about.