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Discussion Starter · #101 ·
Appreciate the feedback. I'm a bit partial to Blackstone, they helped me pinpoint a piston bearing problem in my daughters 69 Charger 440. They have one fellow that is fluent in Chrysler big blocks. Anyway, haven't noticed excessive oil consumption, maybe because I'm changing at 5K intervals. I'll keep a closer eye on that.
If you're not towing, then you might not see much consumption. My truck consumes about a 1/2 quart in 5,000 miles.

Blackstone misses a few things that a good lab will pick up. For one, your report doesn't show TBN or fuel dilution. Blackstone doesn't even have the equipment to measure fuel dilution. Like I said, they are better than nothing, but you're cutting yourself short by not going with a better lab.
 

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2022 Ram 1500 Rebel Ecodiesel 4x4
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Nope, looked at the application list and it does not state the MS-12991 and using amsoil guide does not list any oil recommended for the 3rd gen engine.
i would not use that oil if you are still under warranty period.

i think you posted this in march 22, which i think is good advise. i wish it was approved so i can use it in my Rebel as well

"For warranty purposes, you should run the MS-12991 spec oil. Both MS-12991 and MS-10902 oils produce good UOAs, but I don't want to offer bad advice and jeopardize warranty. Also, I will share what FCA said about running a MS-12991 spec oil in the 2020+ engines. "


 

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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
Nope, looked at the application list and it does not state the MS-12991 and using amsoil guide does not list any oil recommended for the 3rd gen engine.
You are conflating a recommendation with FCA approval. Amsoil specifically recommends EFM since it meets and exceeds API certification. As you pointed out, it does not meet the MS spec, however, the MS spec is only a recommendation, not a requirement. In other words, Amsoil has not paid FCA for the certification. FCA has a contract with Shell, so that's why Shell oils are always approved. Do what you need to do to give you peace of mind, but Amsoil does recommend EFM for the gen 3 Ecodiesel.
 

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Nope, looked at the application list and it does not state the MS-12991 and using amsoil guide does not list any oil recommended for the 3rd gen engine.
i would not use that oil if you are still under warranty period.

i think you posted this in march 22, which i think is good advise. i wish it was approved so i can use it in my Rebel as well

"For warranty purposes, you should run the MS-12991 spec oil. Both MS-12991 and MS-10902 oils produce good UOAs, but I don't want to offer bad advice and jeopardize warranty. Also, I will share what FCA said about running a MS-12991 spec oil in the 2020+ engines. "


Look again Amsoil does list an oil. Also fca recommends those who pay them not what oils work best.
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2022 Ram 1500 Rebel Ecodiesel 4x4
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i checked again on my truck on the amsoil site and still see amsoil does not recommend any oil. then i noticed on your posting you listed your truck as 2021 and it shows
the 5W-40 FS Synthetic European Motor Oil. not sure what the EXH mean on the 2022 trucks, maybe because they changed to API SP and MS-12991 from API SN and MS-12991.


2022 Ram 1500 PICKUP 3.0L 6 -cyl Engine [M] EXH Diesel Fuel Turbo
ENGINE OIL
No recommendations available

Viscosity5W-40 (All TEMPS)
SEO50 - Use of full synthetic motor oil meeting MS-12991 and the API SP engine oil category is required.
Capacity:8.5 quarts (with filter). After refill check oil level.
Torque:30 ft/lbs (Oil Drain Plug)
Notes:(1) Use of full synthetic motor oil meeting MS-12991 and the API SP engine oil category is required.
Notes:(2) Use of full synthetic motor oil meeting MS-12991 and the API SP engine oil category is required.


2021 Ram 1500 PICKUP 3.0L 6 -cyl Engine [M] Diesel Fuel Turbo


ENGINE OIL

Viscosity5W-40 (All TEMPS)
Capacity:8.5 quarts (with filter). After refill check oil level.
Torque:30 ft/lbs (Oil Drain Plug)
Notes:(1) Use of full synthetic motor oil meeting MS-12991 and the API SN engine oil category is required.

Liquid Bottle Bottle cap Fluid Gas
 

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Discussion Starter · #106 ·
i checked again on my truck on the amsoil site and still see amsoil does not recommend any oil. then i noticed on your posting you listed your truck as 2021 and it shows
the 5W-40 FS Synthetic European Motor Oil. not sure what the EXH mean on the 2022 trucks, maybe because they changed to API SP and MS-12991 from API SN and MS-12991.
Give it some time and it will get worked out. Amsoil follows whatever FCA recommends. FCA is notorious for misprints.
 

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On the other UOA thread - someone just posted a factory oil sample @ 2700 miles - your factory fill (57xx) sample shows the same! The FACTORY FILL oil does NOT meet API SP!

Notice that the Pennzoil you put in has about 2/3 the calcium, and supplements Magnesium….

That’s because it’s REQUIRED for SP!

You are going to tell me it’s required, and correct in the book, but the factory sample is clearly NOT API SP!

Yeah… right!
 

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Incidentally - there are only 2 approved oils on the MS-12991 list in the North American market - Pennzoil Platinum Euro and Mopar MaxPro - keep in mind that Quaker State is a Shell product, listing MS-12991 on the bottle, but is NOT approved!
 

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Even more interesting. If I'm understanding this, hypothetically FCA could disapprove an engine warranty claim because a MS12991 spec oil was used, like QS Euro, that was not on their internal approval list?
Nope. Magnuson Moss puts the burden on them to prove your oil caused the failure. The dealer may try - but if you can show oil changes were done, they have to prove the oil caused the failure!
 

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Blackstone misses a few things that a good lab will pick up. For one, your report doesn't show TBN or fuel dilution. Blackstone doesn't even have the equipment to measure fuel dilution. Like I said, they are better than nothing, but you're cutting yourself short by not going with a better lab.
They actually did a TBN, sent me an updated pdf with an 8.2 TBN. They said that means plenty of remaining active additive.
 

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Two major changes. Timing chain wear (2 tests) and LSPI (5 tests).

You won’t find an A3/B4 that won’t pass GF-6. They all pass MB 229.5, which has far more stringent requirements. GF-6 is specifically because we had 5W-30s with High Temperature Full Shear specs well under 2 cSt, on oils with HTHS in the 3.0-3.2 range. Add in dilution from a GTDI (in some cases nearing 5% in a 5000-7500 mile interval), which basically makes the VII ineffective and thins the oil…. The results aren’t great! The latest formulations, those oils are up to 2.0-2.3, and destroy the spec.
For perspective, a really bad A3/B4 oil is around 2.2-2.3 HTFS as a starting point.
The other major change is a reduction in Calcium to prevent LSPI. This was a continuation of SN+. There basically aren’t any engines requiring an A3/B4 oil that have issues with LSPI. The engines that were having the most significant problems all spec’d 0W-20 or 5W-30. GM Korea (Daewoo) 4-cylinder GTDIs, and Ford 4-Cylinder GTDIs we’re the worst. Cheap, volatile non synthetic oils, high calcium levels, and excessive amounts getting into the combustion chambers due to the way the engines are designed = shattered pistons!
The “fix” is to reduce the catalyst in the reaction (calcium).

It has no application to Diesel engines… and, in fact, the factory is still shipping these with a 2700 ppm calcium detergent oil! So…

Also worth noting: API testing is conducted with 5W-30 formulations.


found a new video that might help with the api SP spec

SP and GF-6 engine oils - what’s new?
 

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Other observations about SP - they use a 2.0 EcoBoost Ford (obsolescent) to test timing chain wear. That engine never really had issues with “chain stretch” which is a colloquial term for chain wear causing timing to fall out of specification. The 3.5L V6 GTDI was the engine notorious for this!

You have to grasp that the standard 3.5L Ford engine had no such issues! It was naturally aspirated, most versions were still using port injection, and it spec’d 5W-20 oils.

Due to the lack of VIIs in 5W-20s on average, compared with 5W-30 oils - the High Temperature Full Shear was typically higher - M1, for example - in their SN formulation - the 5W-20 is near 2.1, while the 5W-30 is near 1.9. The 5W-20 is actually thicker at full temporary shear of the VII @ 302F. This seems like a small amount, a couple tenths - but you are talking about a 10% difference in the film thickness.

From there, you add in that the GTDI is probably seeing about 10X the fuel dilution - 3-5%, instead of 0.3-0.5% - and the viscosity of that 5W-30 drops significantly more.

Let’s not forget that it also happens to be equipped with a couple of very hot, small, power adders, that increase Torque near exponentially - and you have a recipe for rapid chain wear!

And so - this was the contributing factor for the development of the ILSAC GF-6 requirements and incorporation into API SP testing. There are actually 2 categories of GF-6 that vary in their requirements…

GM, on the other hand - released a new 1.4L Turbocharged Direct Injected 4-cylinder in their small platform car - state of the art - going to be the most fuel efficient - and customers were easing them around town when Boom! Engine blown while gently cruising around town for groceries! WTH? Grandma wasn’t exactly redlining this thing for all it’s worth…

Well, turns out - under moderate loads, like climbing a hill in 5th or 6th gear, at low RPMs - something caused the fuel charge to detonate like a bomb prematurely - completely shattering the piston, and occasionally ventilating the block.

GM went back and did a lot of testing in the lab. They finally tracked it down to oil in the combustion chamber being the cause. They then did a couple of years worth of testing with Afton and a couple of other additive providers - and they were able to isolate the issue as being an excess of Calcium in the oil. Apparently, in those conditions, the Calcium acts as a catalyst, setting off the reaction seen!

Interestingly, other manufacturers were seeing issues with this on some engines - but not all - and some engines prone to the issue never had problems… in spite of obscene levels of Calcium in their oil! The API testing limits calcium, and encourages magnesium as an alternative. It does not take into account the effects of Ester base stocks, nor Molybdenum.

AMSOILs Signature Series SN oil - went through the API sequence testing with a 0 instance - the only oil tested at the time to score a 0… (The limit is like 6, based on my failing memory.) That is because both Molybdenum, and Ester base stocks act as relatively extreme quenching agents for LSPI. Something around 200-250 ppm of the proper Molybdenum will almost eliminate the possibility - effective dosing for many of these higher end oils has been around 600 ppm of the finest Moly available for some time (HPL, Red Line, Driven, etc.) Ester base is typically found in oils where PAO is used, and is also an effective quenching agent. Most high level oils use 7-15% Ester in the base stock blend, and it also acts as an effective suppressant to the reaction starting.

At the time, again, if memory serves - Signature Series 5W-30 was about 550-570 ppm Moly, around 12% Ester, and sported almost 3000 ppm Calcium…

In typical API fashion - rather than let the test performance speak for itself - they changed the additive windows - and required everyone to reformulate with more expensive additive packages using less calcium based detergent, and more magnesium based detergent which is about 4X as expensive, and was abandoned by Mobil in the late 90s as being less effective than some overbased Calcium alternatives…

So…
What does any of that have to do with a 5W-40 Euro spec oil? Nothing! Not a single bit of that is applicable or helpful for a 3.0L European diesel! Nor does it affect a BMW or Mercedes 3.0L GTDI - as they never had LSPI issues in the first place - they were properly engineered and tested around the existing oils - not rushed to production half baked!

The engines designed to use A3/B4 oils simply don’t require API SP.

The reason for that specification being made in your 2022 Ram owners manual? The ONLY SP formulated A3/B4 Euro Oils in the NorthAmerican market are Pennzoil, Quaker State, and Mopar, all Shell products - nobody else saw a need to re-invent the wheel, and make massive changes to fix the problem where a problem doesn’t exist.

In effect, it is a way of forcing you to use an oil made by their oil partner, and as they offer it in 3 flavors, it’s not technically 1 specific oil, so they don’t have to provide it for you, you have to pay for it! (That’s a Shell game - pun intended!)

The proof of that requirement is in the pudding (UOAs). The factory shipped oil in the 2022s will never meet SP requirements at 2700 ppm of Calcium…
 

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@mat_haas data compiled into my spreadsheet. His results almost mirror @JGRaider.
I've asked @biodiesel to email me some information - and that should allow me to compile data on the Pennzoil Euro.
If you are running something different - I need at least 2 consecutive (3 overall) UOA's with the last 2 being the oil you're using currently, and a VOA for your oil - preferably from an ISO certified lab - as the results tend to be more consistent.

We can start to see some trends - most of the trucks - with about 20K, using the same oil since early - are showing 4 ppm/1K iron, 2-3 ppm/1K Aluminum, and Copper is down to around 1ppm/1K, as chelation of the coolers is tapering off, and potassium is down into the 2-3 ppm/1K range - as the coating is beginning to wear off.

Will be interested to see how bio's results compare - AFL looks to do slightly better - particularly as copper and potassium falls off faster (though this may be simple dilution as user was changing every 5K, so has 3 oil changes at 20K rather than 2), Iron also looks a bit lower (less than 2 ppm/1K), with everything else looking similar.

Worth Noting: EFM, and X-Cess Gen 2 both seem to finish ~ 10K with about 60% of the starting TBN. Depletion rates range from 34-40% in 10K. Those oils are capable of much longer intervals. I also found it interesting that EFM tends to shear a bit more than one would think. We see this in JGRaider's report, as well as mat_haas's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #118 ·
I've asked @biodiesel to email me some information - and that should allow me to compile data on the Pennzoil Euro.
I'm not sure what you need, but here are all my oil reports. I'll be changing the oil sometime in the next 4 weeks, so I'll have one more to add before too long.
 

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